So my gut told me that Glavine was in and Mussina was out (and I'm a huge Mussina fan, apparently able to divorce myself from the Orioles in a way some on here can't divorce their fandom of the Braves from their HOF thoughts), but anyway, I just looked at their stats.

Glavine 1987-2006:
290-191 (.603)
55 Complete Games
24 Shut Outs
2481 Strikeouts
3.46 ERA (20% better than league average according to baseball-reference.com)
2 Cy Young Awards, 4 other times in the top 5 in voting

Mussina 1991-2006:
239-134 (.641)
57 Complete Games
23 Shut Outs
2572 Strikeouts
3.63 ERA (25% better than league average, thanks to tougher AL)
0 Cy Young Awards, but 6 times in the top 5 in voting (plus twice as sixth)

These guys are really, really similar. And Mussina is a bit younger and has time to add to those totals (though potentially also hurt his ERA). Plus, Mussina's winning percentage (already higher than Glavine's) is hurt somewhat because he played for some bad teams whereas Glavine nearly always was on a winner.

You're kidding, right?

I realize I'm skewed by my bias towards the Braves so bear with me, here, but MIKE MUSSINA?

The next big game he dominates and wins for his team will be his first.

Edit: If you guys are all huddled in a chat room somewhere trying to get me to freak out--you've done it. Tom Glavine is the one subject I will fight to the death for.

NL players from the last 20 years are eligible? Are we going to elect AAA players next?

You Yankees-loving cocksuckers will be bringing up Mark Wohlers and Jim Leyritz next.

I hate you all.

I guess you never watched the 1997 ALDS, amazing duels with Randy Johnson. Mussina won both. Or the 2001 ALDS against Zito with the Yankees facing elimination. This was the game where Jeremy Giambi didn't slide. Just two off the top of my head. But I'm not a believer in a few big games making hall of famers in any case.

Anyway, I'm not saying Mussina's a HOFer, but Glavine's not the clear-cut HOFer I thought 20 minutes ago.

Hey, who are you calling Yankees-loving?

So rather than continuing to go around in circles, how about the following topics? What are your thoughts on the HOF qualifications of:

Relief pitchers (only a few in, Gossage likely in next year)
Designated hitters (Baines got barely any support this year, Edgar Martinez coming soon)
Roberto Alomar (great second baseman, probably best of his times, flamed out a bit early)

apparently, cocksuckers like you are unconvincable, unless it is about a dude who you have a flaming fountain of homosexual lust for.

the winner argument is legit, its just not legit for everyone on a team. But, As I know Bloor will attest, Glavine, more than Maddux, more than anyone was THE HEART AND SOUL of those fucking Braves teams.

Mussina?! Rock Raines? Dude, I read the Baseball Encyclopedia as a kid as well, but I also watched the fucking game, not just recite stats. Which is what Cory was saying: Stats can tell you a lot, but not intangibles. Mussina has no intangibles.

Oh, and Bloor, Don Larsen tossed the Perfect Game, not Whitey Ford. But the analogy holds.

Yeah, I remember we were playing a gig during that A's game and a buddy of ours (a Yanks fan) was freaking out. Too funny.

I see all your points regarding Mussina. I'd say his best chances for the HoF are to stick around 4-5 more years and try to get to 300 wins. That plus being a Yankee for so long should do it.

Glavine is so clear cut my head is ready to explode. I had forgotten this until I started going over these numbers but there was genuine outrage that he didnt win the Cy Young in 1992, 93 and 2000.

You also forget just how fucking good Maddux was but I would have always taken Glavine over Maddux.

Brothers to the Bone.

Yeah, you right. Our brain blinded with anger.

I don't know what the Baseball Encyclopedia is.

I'm not unconvincable, you just haven't actually said anything. You're trying to convince me that Glavine is a HOFer when I already said I thought he was, so good job there. But typing a player's name with an exclamation point and question mark after it is not a convincing way of convincing me a player isn't a HOFer (especially when I already said I didn't think Mussina was AND never said what I thought about Raines at all).

As for intangibles... tell me what they are for Glavine. He's a "winner". How is that intangible? He has 290 wins. Are you saying there are another 50 uncounted wins there or something that are intangible?

if you can be a knock out closer for a long time, that is something really special and i think it deserves Hall recognition.

since i hate the DH, i say no. I thnk they should be punished for ruining the rhythm for 50% of baseball.

So like Trevor Hoffman or Mariano Rivera. I agree.



I see what you're saying, but relief pitchers changed the game too. Maybe a really good DH should be in. I'm of two minds here, since a) the DH is arguably half a player, but b) they are part of the game now.

I am saying, dear boy, that intangibles such as leadership, and taking your team to the post season are attributes that add to a player's resume.

And yes, I use literary license whence arguing with the dumb on the internet, but I think you already knew that, and have no retort. You have said nothing either. So, poste and riposte.

i was only half kidding about the DH, i suppose if they were a monster of a hitter for a really long time they deserve it. But i still hate the DH.

Rivera? Absolutely. One of the Top 5 sure shot Hall of Famers playing today. Hoffman is a maybe, but yeah, probably so.

And I tend to agree with you on the DH thing, I'm just not sure that there has been one who fits the credentials.

I haven't said anything because I'm not trying to convince anyone that Mussina is a HOFer, just pointing out how similar he is to Glavine.

As for taking your team to the postseason- is there really that big of a difference between Glavine's 12 and Mussina's 8 post-season appearances?

The thing is, being in Atlanta, you were able to watch Glavine all the time until he left for NY. You saw him do plenty of amazing things, things that don't show up in the box scores and I think are what you're calling intangibles.

In DC, I saw Mussina do the same thing, until he left for NY. At least we can both agree that players going to NY sucks.

I'm not trying to convince you that Mussina is in, or that Glavine is out, just that you're letting your love of the Braves blind you to certain things.

But thanks for calling me dumb.

Okay, Z and I are going vinyl shopping. Be good.

I guess you grew up in MD? I've been to 3 parks about equally: Fulton County/Turner, Kansas City/Kaufman, and Memorial/Camden Yards.

I followed the Birds most of my childhood. Glavine has "that certain something" that Mussina never did. Mussina is the Palmeiro of pitchers. Really good pitcher, not a fucking winner. Sorry.

cool. pick me up something.

Yeah, POD and Chuck D played me the new Black Keys and that Nina Nastasia on Vinyl...shit was RIGHT!

I think i'm gonna go back for Fox Confessor on vinyl. It's time.

I'm with you to a degree. I think you start with stats and then eliminate subjectively the guys that your guts just tell you from having watched them and observed them who ISN'T a HOF'er of those that appear to meet the objective criteria.

Your "watched the fucking game" line caught my eye too. Do you really have strong memories of watching Jack Morris pitch? Wouldn't you have been pretty damn young during his prime?

Its precisely from watching him play that I question whether he's really a HOF'er. He had a long and distinguished career and won some big games for sure, but he wasn't a guy that you feared your team facing. You didn't watch in awe in the first inning at his stuff when he was on and just call the game and hope for the best tomorrow. And when you looked at the three game pitching matchups that included his fellow starters (who were clearly not HOFers) on the Tigers at various points (Dan Petry, Milt Wilcox, Frank Tanana, and Walt Terrell), you really didn't fear Morris THAT much more than any of those guys in their prime. And that makes it hard for me to take him that seriously as a hall of fame candidate.

Apparently Scott Brosius, Tino Martinez, Bernie Williams, and Billy Hatcher are HOFers according to Loogar. All the intangibles and big game heroics.

I think Glavine is a HOF, but not a slam dunk. He also has the most losses in postseason history. Tied for 2nd with most wins.

Smoltz was and is a much better big game pitcher.