I am not equating evil with the Devil. I don't know much about what role the Devil plays. However, my point was this: If evil exists, then by God's nature it cannot originate from him directly, therefore we were created with simply a capability for evil. The capacity exists within humanity to do evil things. Therefore, in issues of determinism, if someone decides to drown their children, for me, it cannot be that God determined that action. Rather that the ability of humanity's free will to choose evil led to this action. Not God. I guess you could argue that if God created the capability to do evil(free will) then you could say that indirectly God created evil. But, I think that contradicts what free will is. God, being "omniscient" knows not just what is right and wrong but he knows the consequences of each action too. This is where you can get a moral law from, in terms of divinity. God can set up a do's and don't's list because he knows the outcome of the actions, within the physical as well as the eternal realm.

Also, it would seem that if free will were obsolete and not a reality, then things like the 10 commandments would not be necessary. If no matter what we did we did as a direct result of the hand of God or some destiny controlling being, then we cannot do anything right or wrong. We are simply doing what we had no control over in the first place, so why do we need a set of rules.

so must the chicken.

Your comment is noted. It does nothing to further this discussion of this question.

though the flesh wants honey, i think that God will make His will mine if I am truly open to bbq.

Habbakuk-q would probably be even better.

I'm a complete agnostic, so I'm not absolutely certain of anything. I've had moments where I've at least contemplated that fate has played a hand in events transpired and chalking it up to chance or coincidence seemed somewhat close-minded. So, I think I'd lean towards a little of both, microcosmic free will co-mingling or subsumed with macrocosmic destiny, but that's just based on my own personal subjective experience. So I guess I'm taking a solipsistic stance as well.

OOOOOOOO.

More good stuff. But if he's omnipotent, and we are created in his image, doesn't it stand to reason that we experience time linearly for a reason, and that he too can experience time in this way?

Not that that changes any of that reasoning about how he experiences time.

O.k., the general idea as promoted by the new testament is that god is a loving god, etc. etc. blah blah blah.

So why would he let people continue with a destiny that would preclude them from heaven? I mean, being omnipotent, and loving and all.

The whole suffering thing bakes my noodle.

i lean toward a combo of both but mostly i don't know.

O.k., the five people who voted a little of both... give me some insight.

Albert Camus Jr.

the comment is worthwhile.
how can you live you life according to a book that was written with mans manipulative intentions. I guess you can believe it was really god who was doing all the editing of all the different versions over the years . . . but i myself think that's a silly notion.

The question at the beginning of the thread implies belief of some kind, and shitting on that belief doesn't answer the question.

You can start your own, "how can you idiots believe in the bible" thread, but this was supposed to be a good clean discussion. Follow rads example, conduct yourself with some kind of respect and decorum, and help me dig into my question.

And i didn't say it wasn't worthwhile, I just said it didn't help answer the free will vs. destiny question.

According to my philosophy lectures everything is pretty much predestinted (causal nature of the universe) with a tiny little bit of random chance (quantum physics).

But then I may have misheard due to sitting next to a hot girl who strokes my leg and draws smiley faces on my notepad.

i think it's worthwhile to discuss the pro's and con's of using the bible as your reasons for believing in one or the other. Not sure he brought up the issue in the best way possible, but it's a worthwhile part of the discussion.

From a Christian perspective, you would have to answer this question based around the idea of sin. And the idea that "the wages of sin is death", which generally speaking doesn't just mean physical death, but spiritual separation from God. It's such a complex question. It really is. But, to make a long explanation short, God is not only loving. He is also just. But, you have to accept many premises of the Christian faith before this can really be explained and make any sense and it ultimately leads you back to faith. If you don't believe in the foundational parts then you can only explain it so far. Eventually i think everything gets narrowed down to an issue of faith.

I think those questions are a whole 'nuther debate. It's pretty obvious the early Christians didn't understand shit about fuck when they wrote the bible (I mean, let's face it, "god made man in his own image" is a RETARDED notion). And modern day Christians still insist on misunderstanding some of the basic concepts that they supposedly adhere to. Free will and destiny aren't mutually exclusive ideas unless you tack on some of that excess baggage that comes with the bible (eg: the humanization of a god, eternal damnation for earthly sins, evil as a supernatural force, etc). But I'll let the good Christians explain all that shee.

This thread blew my mind.

well, that's nice to hear, because i'm not stupid.

look, i went to lutheran school from age three to age 18. i don't know what the hell to believe. but, i don't think that we're just all free beings roaming the earth making our own decisions. i think that a lot of it has been laid out for us. again, by whom, i have no idea. and i really don't have anything to back that up, i just believe it. and i think i just repeated what i posted the first time, but whatever. i blame my atheist parents for sending me to parochial school. what a cruel f**king joke that was.

religious discussions always drive me crazy because regardless of how open minded people say they are, everyone's really on their own side of the fence. i think that there's just too much belittling of those that don't believe what you do (that goes for the biblebeaters as well as the atheists). i'm not even directing this to the board, either. i have an aunt who is a missionary in poland. she believes that all gay men are gay because they were molested by their father or another male relative. i know gay men who grew up in much more stable and healthy homes than the straight men in my life. but when i explained that to her, she called me a sinner because i didn't try to make them turn to god and therefore be cured of their "illness". she's as crazy as the atheists who make fun of christians because they like having religion or god in their lives.

and wow, that was far too long for a thursday morning post. i must be infected with the lawd!

Which brings us to full circle on this discussion, as it usually does.

Do I have faith that God will send some to a place called hell? Yes.
Did God intend this? Free will was given in the Garden and man chose wrong. From around then to Jesus, the law. But the law is not possible for any man to keep, so did everone from Adam to Jesus go to hell? I think not. Check Job out.

Then Jesus. Savior. Saved from what? The penalty of the law. Jesus accepted the wrath of God at the crucifixion. Propitiation. So the law is moot? No. Read Paul's epistles. He speaks extensively of freedom. Of will. But the crux of the debate is free will or destiny to believe what is written here. This is where I (currently) choose destiny. Keep spinnin'

i've recently come to terms with the fact that i'm not all that open minded when it comes to religion.

you rock.

bigot.

you rock.
bigot.

When do we get to hold the rattlesnakes?