Have we met a few times before?

Oh I think my point is to engage the ideas of another culture, learn from the conversations...

I remember back in my drinking days about five hours of drunken conversation in a cafe on the left bank with a French arch-catholic conservative. I learned a hell of lot...honed my own thinking. I still remember the specific moment when I realized...jeez, this crypto-nazi has some points... I can understand his worldview. But it was November and cold and we'd gone through about 15 pitchers of beaujolais nouveau

Shit, guys. That isn't that ridiculous of an idea. Why dismiss it out of hand like that?

My personal experience with the international "discussions" of U.S. policies and administrations has typically consisted of the following paraphrase:

Them: "Man, your country and your president are fucked up. I think your country is stupid and so are most of the people in it."

Me: "Meh. What're you gonna do?"

They have never been about the interchange of ideas and values and not once approached a moment of dialogue. When I have gone to other countries(I should clarify, western european countries), discussions like this are initiated by them and are only brought up so they can poke fun or ridicule the country I am from and the nation I was born in.

However, my experience with people from countries much further away from my own language(eastern european and south american countries) has allowed me to really get into the culture of where I am as well as have them experience a bit of the american culture. Although language is a barrier, sometimes it can be a catalyst for understanding another culture or way of thinking. When you struggle to have a basic conversation, you don't get blinded by pretty much futile U.S. domestic and foreign policy or U.S. Administration discussions.

Maybe cos I've been drinking pretty much regularly since 15-16 anyway.

My favorite falacy of most arguments here is:
Americans, are generally supposed to be illinformed nincompoops concerned with fashion, 'partying' and music

Foreigners on the other hand, all possess a wealth of knowledge on almost all subjects, are all concerned about the well being of the world, and given the right prodding and a nice glass of wine can recite Proust as well as speak judiciously on the philosophy of Kant, the music of Mozart and the economic ideas of Adam Smith.

Fuck right off!!

I understand what you are saying in previous posts and in this one. But, I was restating as to how things become "tiresome". Engaging some people in an "intelligent" discussion when they start it that way is like trying to convince a 13 year old girl that there is better music than Fall Out Boy in the world.

well, I think it's fair to say that as far as students go, that's pretty spot on. Sure, there's ignorant peolple in every part of the world, but as far as people that are supposed to be extending their education, we still have some complete asses. It's been my experience bar none that students in other countries know a lot more about what's going on in this country as well as the rest of the world than the average student here.

Rhetorically speaking, this is a straw man. Who said foreigners were more erudite than Americans? If an American and a Spainard are having an exchange of ideas... it takes two to tango.

And admittedly this is idealistic... conversations in other countries often are reduced to ... where is the bathroom... or... is that hash oil?

Obviously, you did not serve in Peace Corps when I did. I distinctly remember the other volunteers growing dismayed by the precision and breadth of knowledge of the Romanians of college-age, and slightly older.

Never mind, Romanians go clubbing and drugging as much as any other....

When studying in Belgium, I was chastised by a local student who said something like this:

"If I were to study in America, I would make an effort to learn English. I find it arrogant that you do not have to learn Dutch."

Some of my points:

- my high school hosted foreign exchange students who arrived with little or no English skills. Learning English was part of the reason they came.
- there are three official languages in Belgium, a country the size of Maryland: Dutch, French, and German. Could this be a factor in many of your country's citizens being multi-lingual?
- I have met Spaniards who know only Spanish, Italians who know only Italian...what is your opinion of them?
- you haven't studied in America, yet you are fluent in English. Elaborate on your choice to learn the language. Would your reasons for learning English be the same reasons I would justify learning Dutch?
- it is impossible to avoid multiple languages in Europe. I could travel from Alaska to Florida without needing an additional language.

I was not trying to justify my lack of non-English skills--believe me, I wish I could be fluent in all languages. But I can certainly see why someone in Europe would be better able to learn multiple languages. It's a matter of geography as much as anything else.

I think studying in Europe taught me as much about the United States as it did Europe. And there are plenty of Europeans who watch MTV and visit Walt Disney World and assume they have a strong grasp on what it means to be American.

Who the hell takes lip off a Belgian? Their country is nothing more than the last German marshalling ground on the way to France.

They can't even support a national airline. How can you take a country seriously that can't field a national airline?

so which one did you learn?

My courses while studying abroad were concerned with political science and economics, mostly. But I had 6 years of French prior to arriving. I studied in the northern half of Belgium (Flanders - the Dutch speaking part) while the south (Wallonia) was French speaking.

cotton, i believe you just got f'ed in the a.

why, because he learned Belgian Dutch/Flemish?

yes

Don't forget Kylie Minogue.

There's probably more to this than appears on the surface. I also recently had one of Harry's very in-depth conversation about politics, ideals and values with a very intelligent guy from Australia who was a few years younger than me (I'm 29).

While he was pretty well versed in American government and politics, especially for an outsider, there were many small details that he had never been exposed to or examined, since it's very difficult to see the whole field in binoculars. We talked about all sorts of issues facing people and their livelihoods, from American economic policy to affirmative action to multi-national corporations and worker exploitation.

Later, we talked about Australian politics including aboriginals and race relations on your side of the globe. All in all, it appeared that we held pretty similar values and ideas, but they were heavily influenced by quite a few cultural differences and viewpoints. That's what throws it all off.

You may think that you know more about US policy than some natives, and you might. But it's probably more likely that you know more about how US policy affects Australia or other nations better than someone from the inside. In my enlightening conversation with the aforementioned Australian guy, I spent a good amount of time explaining the small yet significant differences between the Senate and the House of Representatives, while also comparing and contrasting our bicamerial federal legislature to the Australian system, and then throwing in each state government and their own quirks.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, and I'm not trying to sound condescending, but I'm really curious: Are you that familiar with how American Presidents are elected, i.e. the Electoral College, versus the parliamentary process? I've had some interesting conversations explaining it to non-Americans before. It's a unique process.

Also, rightly or wrongly, more non-Americans on the globe are probably more focused on US Government policy because of how big we are. There are probably more books written (or filled with pictures) about Elvis Presley than any other musician, because he was the huge star. I'm don't think Barry Bonds is innocent of anything, but if he were an average player only bumped to above average by chemistry, not as many people would give a shit.

In general, if I'm independent to learn on new political and governmental issues, I'm going to investigate American history and American politics 99% of the time, because I want to learn as much as I can about where I come from, where we've been and what we can learn from our past rather than the labor history of Uraguay. After all, if I can't learn from our mistakes, how can I begin to make progress to lessen or avoid negative decision making on a global scale you and other non-Americans have experienced at the hands of US policy?

I'm all for the discussions that Harry talked about. They can be fascinating. But I'm not as interested in Laos or Denmark as I am the good ol' US of A.

I'll drink to that, these people worship Hasselhof.

This pretty much hit on a lot of things I was going to say.

A lot of the reason why non-Americans know about American politics is because it affects them directly. Even on Channel Ten news here, which is lowest-brow of the free-to-air newses, American political events are reported on, precisely because it America decides to go to war (for example), we're going to be in on it.

That said, there are plenty of people here who can barely name out prime minister, let alone anyone else of political importance. I live in a college as well, and during the 2004 federal election it was truly scary having conversations with people who are smart enought to get into the most prestigious uni in the country, but couldn't even tell you which party Howard and Beazley (opposition leader) belonged to, let alone their policies.

About the electoral cllege thing, I got some understanding of it during the lsat presidential election, but I understand that a few states have different rules (like allocating electoral college votes kind of proportionately, not just all to the winner?) than the rest, which complicates it a bit.

The main thing I don't understand about US politics is the filibuster stuff and why people vote against their party, mainly because it just doesn't happen here

Understood, well argued. As an aside, I've know a lot of aussies and I have found their "leftism" covering an ethnocentric arrogance that they have a hard time seeing. I think the hope is that authentic experience with international perspectives make our own sense of ourselves different. We tend to being ingrown, solipcistic, as a nation. This is a pretty theoretical stance, (but what the hell, the thread got hijacked away from underwear) perhaps knowing more about Laos and Denmark might better inform our own ideas of the good ole usa.

i like to stay informed, but really what does it do for me?

Ummm.. during this very brief time between being forced in pain and blood from our mother's womb to the time we break down in disease and old age and struggle for breath and then stop and our bodies decay... we might have a more intense and interesting life if we stay informed. Form the inside, yeah?