So i just finished reading "Brave New World". In the afterword, it was mentioned that the book was almost universally panned. Many critics hated it, many people didn't understand it, and other than getting a small following in the underground scene (they had an underground back then?), it most certainly would fall into flop parameters.

I was thinking of Kevin Smith's Chasing Amy movie. I can't recall specific reviews but most either passed or called it a "sleeper". It didn't last long in the theatres. I'd call it a flop.

Do good albums ever flop? Maybe the critics have their heads up their ass? Maybe it came out "before its time"? Maybe no one was paying attention? I suppose VU and Big Star are oft-cited as bands that were unloved in their own time but their albums are getting massive recognition now. I can't really think of many others, except maybe bands that got shafted by a major label like Damone and Jawbreaker.

bort
np - john vanderslice

I guess it depends what you mean by "flop." Most of the artists in my collection routinely sell well under 200,000 copies of any release, but "indie" success is often very different from mainstream success.

Jawbreaker's "Dear You" was the biggest seller of their career, but it was also (arguably) only their 3rd best album.

Wouldn't a vast majority of indie albums and the albums in the Best of Obner list be considered commercial flops. Industry standards would state that you probably need to sell atleast a million for a commercial release or have atleast two hit singles. Indie bands are deemed to be a major success by commercial press until they sell about a 250,000 units or debut an album in the top ten.

I've always considered Superchunk to be a success (appearances on Late Night w/Conan, several videos on MTV, generally positive press), but even their biggest sellers topped out at around 40,000 copies.

Badfinger - Wish You Were Here

I rest my case.

I guess the term 'flop' is warranted only when an album that is expected to sell well, doesn't. Therefore indie releases generally aren't flops.

Exactly...I've always thought something should fail 2 criteria before being labelled a "flop" :

1. What MGL mentioned above - sales compared to expectations, and

b. Sales compared to cost

You could apply "b" to the "Chasing Amy" scenario...was it a big hit? No. But Smith made that movie for $250,000 - & it grossed $10-15 million BEFORE ancillary markets ( home video, etc. ) . I'd say making 40 + times your initial investment is NOT a "flop" - rather, a raging fucking success.

One of my Top 10 all-time favorite albums is the debut from TSAR. Their idiot label ( Hollywood Records ) didn't spend much $$$ promoting it, other that spending the dough needed to get them on a Duran Duran summer tour 5 years ago. BUT - they used a big money producer ( Rob Cavallo ) to make a huge sounding, glossy record.

The album sold about 5,000 copies. That's about $50K grossed back to the label...which MIGHT have paid for the tour buses on the DD tour, but nothing else. THAT'S a flop...& it's why it took TSAR 5 years to make another record.

jawbreaker's "dear you" was their major label debut, to be released as punk was hitting the mainstream in 1995, but no one noticed, and the album, which has since gone out of print (recently reissued by the band itself), was considered a colossal failure by the label. then the band imploded and broke up.

I think Bort was pretty clear what he meant by flop: works that are considered classics now, but were critical and commercial failures upon release. Although I certainly wouldn't put Chasing Amy in that category. That flick still sucks on all levels.

Almost all Velvet Underground albums would apply, but especially White Light/ White Heat. Likewise the first Stooges album was not met with much positive fanfare.

Exile On Main Street got absolutely savaged when it was released. Critics hated it. I think the only single they had off it was "Tumbling Dice", and I don't remember that climbing very high in the charts.

Also, Television's Marquee Moon was met with lukewarm-to-cold praise by critics, based on how disappointing it was compared to their early live shows. And it sold exactly bupkis.

Here's one for both album and movie:

The Monkees - Head

I'm not even sure if the first strokes album even went platinum

RIAA confirms that suspicion.

My submission: Loveless. It made some critics' year-end lists, but most of the acclaim has come in hindsight, and it was overshadowed by practically everything else released in '91.

I would also say Paul's Boutique was a flop relative to the Beasties releases before and after.

Remain in Light by Talking Heads is only gold at the moment. In comparison, Little Creatures went double platinum.

Didn't the Pixies break up because they weren't "successful"?