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 Post subject: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Hair Trigger of Doom

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I posted this to my blog this morning, and thought I would share here, as well...

http://bobhasablog.com/2014/09/05/the-lowest-extremities/

Quote:
My wife and I recently had a conversation with two of our teenagers about the dismal state of American politics, which I rarely discuss with anyone these days, even though I majored in Political Science back in college. Not that such a course of study makes me more qualified to have such a discussion — it most certainly doesn’t — but having once been interested enough in the topic to spend four years focused on it (actually five, if I’m being completely honest) would seem to suggest a willingness on my part to more frequently discuss politics.

Alas, this is the social media age, where every word posted on Twitter or Facebook is immediately scrutinized, judged, and — if not completely aligned with that particular reader’s entire viewpoint — attacked. Anyone who dares to disagree in the slightest on even the smallest point is instantly branded a dangerous heretic or an imminent threat. This appears to be a direct byproduct of the intense partisanship that currently permeates Washington, D.C., and which has led to the demise of civil discourse.

The two-party system has been in place for well over a century, yet only over the past two decades has the divide between the Democrats and Republicans become so deep and bitter. With each passing year, the rancor and vitriol becomes increasingly hostile. The chasm is now so great, the middle ground has completely eroded. All that remains on the ideological spectrum is the far left and far right.

Somewhere along the way, independent thought became viewed as weakness. To be truly considered a Democrat, you must be unyieldingly liberal, and to be truly considered a Republican, you must be unflinchingly conservative. Any view held by the other side must be immediately opposed, dismissed, rejected, and repudiated as treasonous heresy. Strength can only come from a complete and total alignment of opinion. Dissent is anathema.

As a result, it has become virtually impossible to engage anyone in a reasoned discussion about anything even remotely political. Every single topic, regardless of significance, is now a hot button issue requiring a stance be immediately and definitively taken on one side or the other. All that exists is black and white. Gray is but a distant memory.

That’s why I typically avoid discussing politics, but when our kids wondered aloud who we thought might be the next President, my wife and I considered it a perfect opportunity to try and start reversing the trend of belligerent political discourse in this country by openly engaging the next generation in a civil and respectful manner.

We talked with them about how the two-party system is antiquated and broken, which has caused a level of government gridlock so impenetrable that it severely handicaps the effectiveness of whoever sits in the office — regardless of whether that person is a Democrat or Republican. Each of the past two Presidents — Barack Obama and George W. Bush — have been criticized to the point of villainy by their opposition in Congress, who uses their power to serve as an obstruction to democracy, rather than the conduit they were elected to be.

But most of all, we emphasized to both our 16-year-old son and our 14-year-old daughter the importance of thinking for themselves, rather than simply falling in lockstep with either extreme of the ideological spectrum. Each man and woman in this great country of ours should be free to make their own informed decisions, without feeling any societal pressure to align with one side or the other. A party platform is not sacrosanct, nor should it be viewed as a guide for living one’s life.

Show respect for others to hold opinions which differ from your own. The fact that someone disagrees with you does not make them wrong. Simply because someone has an opposing viewpoint does not mean they are a bad person. This line of thinking has to stop, or this country is doomed. We are capable of peacefully coexisting, despite our differences. That is the very freedom upon which America was founded. Let’s all please try and remember that the next time we engage with someone whose opinion differs from our own.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:41 pm 
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Bedroom Demos
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I think a discussion in person would differ than one on the internet. I live in Canada where we have a 4 or 5 party system. I used to get into some heated debates on the internet surrounding american politics and religion. I know many people that have opposite views of mine but we can have respectful discussions on any of these subjects. So I decided really hard to do this online and when I simply and respectfully disagreed with someone and explained why I disagreed I was hit with a barage of profanity and disrespectful displays. I'm not sure if these people would talk like this when face to face but it certainly makes one unwittingly want to hear the other person's viewpoint.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Go Platinum
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Bob - I think that you are completely wrong about this.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Hair Trigger of Doom

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Zombeels Wrote:
I think a discussion in person would differ than one on the internet. I live in Canada where we have a 4 or 5 party system. I used to get into some heated debates on the internet surrounding american politics and religion. I know many people that have opposite views of mine but we can have respectful discussions on any of these subjects. So I decided really hard to do this online and when I simply and respectfully disagreed with someone and explained why I disagreed I was hit with a barage of profanity and disrespectful displays. I'm not sure if these people would talk like this when face to face but it certainly makes one unwittingly want to hear the other person's viewpoint.


Excellent point! Much of what gets spewed online would never dare be said in a face-to-face conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Hair Trigger of Doom

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billy g Wrote:
Bob - I think that you are completely wrong about this.


well played, beeg

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:08 am 
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Zombeels Wrote:
I'm not sure if these people would talk like this when face to face but it certainly makes one unwittingly want to hear the other person's viewpoint.


This. Once the debate on the issue turns into derogatory remarks on the debater, that's when I lose all interest in what the person has to say.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:37 pm 
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Fluke Breakthrough Single
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I feel like they were having this same "bipartisanship is tearing us apart" argument 40 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:59 pm 
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Whiskey Tango
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Lrr Wrote:
I feel like they were having this same "bipartisanship is tearing us apart" argument 40 years ago.


This. We've been arguing about the same things for the last 50+ and in some cases 150+ years.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:29 pm 
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Hair Trigger of Doom

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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Lrr Wrote:
I feel like they were having this same "bipartisanship is tearing us apart" argument 40 years ago.


This. We've been arguing about the same things for the last 50+ and in some cases 150+ years.


Yes, but does it not seem as if the tone and tenor of the arguments is harsher and more vitriolic than ever before?

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:38 pm 
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Whiskey Tango
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FT Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
Lrr Wrote:
I feel like they were having this same "bipartisanship is tearing us apart" argument 40 years ago.


This. We've been arguing about the same things for the last 50+ and in some cases 150+ years.


Yes, but does it not seem as if the tone and tenor of the arguments is harsher and more vitriolic than ever before?


No. We fought a fucking Civil War in this country. People were put up on TV and deprived of their livelihoods because of suspicion of being communists, the National Guard and the 82nd Airborne had to forcibly integrate schools, the scene in Chicago outside the 1968 Democratic Convention, on and on and on.

Big cities used to have tons of different newspapers most of them hate filled screeds that would make Twitter blush.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:34 pm 
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frostingspoon
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FT Wrote:
Zombeels Wrote:
I think a discussion in person would differ than one on the internet. I live in Canada where we have a 4 or 5 party system. I used to get into some heated debates on the internet surrounding american politics and religion. I know many people that have opposite views of mine but we can have respectful discussions on any of these subjects. So I decided really hard to do this online and when I simply and respectfully disagreed with someone and explained why I disagreed I was hit with a barage of profanity and disrespectful displays. I'm not sure if these people would talk like this when face to face but it certainly makes one unwittingly want to hear the other person's viewpoint.


Excellent point! Much of what gets spewed online would never dare be said in a face-to-face conversation.


I'm honestly not being argumentative towards either of y'all. But for face-to-face...I spent two hours last night being screamed at. At a neighborhood association meeting, because I'm a Board Member. Not an HOA, a fucking non-profit neighborhood association. Our prominent activities are: ice cream social, writing & distributing a 4-page newsletter, and buying dog shit bags.

People are monsters.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:59 am 
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Bedroom Demos
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
FT Wrote:
Zombeels Wrote:
I think a discussion in person would differ than one on the internet. I live in Canada where we have a 4 or 5 party system. I used to get into some heated debates on the internet surrounding american politics and religion. I know many people that have opposite views of mine but we can have respectful discussions on any of these subjects. So I decided really hard to do this online and when I simply and respectfully disagreed with someone and explained why I disagreed I was hit with a barage of profanity and disrespectful displays. I'm not sure if these people would talk like this when face to face but it certainly makes one unwittingly want to hear the other person's viewpoint.


Excellent point! Much of what gets spewed online would never dare be said in a face-to-face conversation.


I'm honestly not being argumentative towards either of y'all. But for face-to-face...I spent two hours last night being screamed at. At a neighborhood association meeting, because I'm a Board Member. Not an HOA, a fucking non-profit neighborhood association. Our prominent activities are: ice cream social, writing & distributing a 4-page newsletter, and buying dog shit bags.

People are monsters.
Also keep in mind my face to face debates are with people I know. I'm sure with strangers there could be some discourse. I also know some people are very passionate about certain subjects.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:54 am 
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Hair Trigger of Doom

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Elvis Fu Wrote:
People are monsters.


I think this is REALLY the point I was trying to make.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:12 am 
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I think there's a relatively small % of folks who will be completely irrational argumentative asshats about anything, no matter how trivial, In Person. Those people are 90% of who shows up at community meetings. So the setting of a community meeting is pre-filtering for the worst of the worst. Online, however, it's a MUCH bugger % of people who will act like irrational argumentative asshats, due to the anonymity and distance.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:41 am 
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Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
I think there's a relatively small % of folks who will be completely irrational argumentative asshats about anything, no matter how trivial, In Person.


Agree with this. Some people just like to hold court and argue.

Quote:
Those people are 90% of who shows up at community meetings. So the setting of a community meeting is pre-filtering for the worst of the worst.


Disagree with this. I attend most of our neighborhood meetings (also a non-profit) and by and large it's people who are engaged and active in the community. There are a few that will want to loudly voice their opinion and pretty much everyone hates them just because they drag the meeting on and they aren't productive. We're a pretty big neighborhood though with several big events throughout the year. Not sure if size of the meeting plays a role.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:06 pm 
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I'm exaggerating. But there is ALWAYS one, if not two or three, around here.

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[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:48 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
FT Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
Lrr Wrote:
I feel like they were having this same "bipartisanship is tearing us apart" argument 40 years ago.


This. We've been arguing about the same things for the last 50+ and in some cases 150+ years.


Yes, but does it not seem as if the tone and tenor of the arguments is harsher and more vitriolic than ever before?


No. We fought a fucking Civil War in this country. People were put up on TV and deprived of their livelihoods because of suspicion of being communists, the National Guard and the 82nd Airborne had to forcibly integrate schools, the scene in Chicago outside the 1968 Democratic Convention, on and on and on.

Big cities used to have tons of different newspapers most of them hate filled screeds that would make Twitter blush.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:23 pm 
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I chair a community group and the same 8-10 activists show up each month to rant and rave all sorts of one-sided shit. I mean I agree with some of what they say but they are so unable to think objectively or even consider another perspective...it kills their credibility and our interest in listening at some point.

Monsters yes

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:22 am 
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rogneeb Wrote:
I chair a community group and the same 8-10 activists show up each month to rant and rave all sorts of one-sided shit. I mean I agree with some of what they say but they are so unable to think objectively or even consider another perspective...it kills their credibility and our interest in listening at some point.

Monsters yes


I have to deal with (and occasionally intercede on behalf of my customers) these fucking neighborhood HOA's...jesus, I'd like to firebomb them all back to the Stone Age.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:41 am 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
rogneeb Wrote:
I chair a community group and the same 8-10 activists show up each month to rant and rave all sorts of one-sided shit. I mean I agree with some of what they say but they are so unable to think objectively or even consider another perspective...it kills their credibility and our interest in listening at some point.

Monsters yes


I have to deal with (and occasionally intercede on behalf of my customers) these fucking neighborhood HOA's...jesus, I'd like to firebomb them all back to the Stone Age.

Image

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I'd probably just drink myself to death. More so, I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:20 am 
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Find me something on the Burr/Hamilton duel, Mike--THAT was civil discourse.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:16 am 
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Eh, let's be real, the current Republican party is trash. They ran the country into the ground during the Bush years and now want no part in fixing their own mess because they don't want the Democrat in the White House to get the credit.

Fuck them.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:27 pm 
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Here we go!


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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:08 am 
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Drinky Wrote:
Here we go!


On this board? No fucking way. Everybody just nods silently.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dismal State of Politics and Demise of Civil Discourse
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:39 am 
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OPA! Wrote:
Eh, let's be real, the current Republican party is trash. They ran the country into the ground during the Bush years and now want no part in fixing their own mess because they don't want the Democrat in the White House to get the credit.

Fuck them.

As usual, OPA! bringing the civility.

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