Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ] 

Board index : Music Talk : Rock/Pop

Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 937,000 seconds of silence (Rwanda revisited)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:24 am 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
11 years ago, from April 6th through July. Not to disrespect OKC, but that would be 11 days of silence in remembrance of the dead.

Bangladeshi genocide of 1971? That's one million seconds of silence.

Darfur? ca 338,000. That's 4 days of silence.

9/11/01? That's 50 minutes of silence.

OKC = almost 3 minutes of silence.

--------------------------------------------

maybe we need more moments of silence.

--------------------------------------------

i don't like people very much. persons i'm okay with - it's people that i don't do well with.

p.s. i have no idea where i was when Rwanda finally started having an impact on me. It might be when I saw the tv images of corpse-clogged rivers and villages full of rotting bodies. For some reason American channels had no problem with showing rotting darkies on tv. Blown up Americans? Too disturbing by far.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 937,000 seconds of silence (Rwanda revisited)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:35 am 
Offline
Winona Ryder wears my t-shirt on TV

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:10 pm
Posts: 2532
Location: Cleveland, OH
Apparently Darfur doesn't have any oil.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:38 am 
Offline
"Weddings, Parties, Anything…"
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:39 am
Posts: 798
Location: San Francisco
I highly highly highly recommend the book "we wish to inform you that tomorrow we will be killed with our families", which is about the Rwandan genocide.

_________________
Theologians still maintain there is a special place in Hell reserved for Wahlberg in return for the pain he inflicted during his mercifully brief career as a rapper.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 937,000 seconds of silence (Rwanda revisited)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:39 am 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
Borg166 Wrote:
Apparently Darfur doesn't have any oil.


Don't cheapen this with your third grade reactionary politics. I can out-liberal you with both hands tied behind my back. This goes beyond oil. Dig deeper.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:47 am 
Offline
The Obner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:48 pm
Posts: 4479
i agree, everyone should shut up and die.

_________________
[img]https://i.imgur.com/OV6GpTD.jpg[/img]


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:48 am 
Offline
Hipster Backlash

Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:20 am
Posts: 2869
April 6, 1994 Rwandan President Habyarimana and the Burundian President are killed when Habyarimana's plane is shot down near Kigali Airport. Hutu extremists, suspecting that the Rwandan president is finally about to implement the Arusha Peace Accords, are believed to be behind the attack. The killings begin that night.

April 7, 1994 The Rwandan Armed Forces (FAR) and Hutu militia (the interahamwe) set up roadblocks and go from house to house killing Tutsis and moderate Hutu politicians. Thousands die on the first day. Some U.N. camps shelter civilians, but most of the U.N. peackeeping forces (UNAMIR--United Nations Assistance Mission in Rwanda) stand by while the slaughter goes on. They are forbidden to intervene, as this would breach their "monitoring" mandate.
On this day, ten Belgian soldiers with UNAMIR, assigned to guard the moderate Hutu Prime Minister, are tricked into giving up their weapons. They are tortured and murdered.

Also on this day, President Clinton issues a statement:
"... shocked and deeply saddened ... horrified that elements of the Rwandan security forces have sought out and murdered Rwandan officials ... extend my condolences ... condemn these actions and I call on all parties to cease any such actions immediately ..."

April 8, 1994 The Tutsi Rwandese Patriotic Front (RPF) launches a major offensive to end the killings and rescue 600 of its troops surrounded in Kigali. The troops had been based in the city as part of the Arusha Accords.
President Clinton speaks to the press about Rwanda--
"... I mention it only because there are a sizable number of Americans there and it is a very tense situation. And I just want to assure the families of those who are there that we are doing everything we possible can to be on top of the situation to take all the appropriate steps to try to assure the safety of our citizens there."

April 9-10, 1994 France and Belgium send troops to rescue their citizens. American civilians are also airlifted out. No Rwandans are rescued, not even Rwandans employed by Western governments in their embassies, consulates, etc.

April 11, 1994 The International Red Cross estimates that tens of thousands of Rwandans have been murdered.
At the Don Bosco school, protected by Belgian UNAMIR soldiers, the number of civilians seeking refuge reaches 2,000. That afternoon, the U.N. soldiers are ordered to withdraw to the airport. Most of the civilians they abandon are killed.

April 14, 1994 One week after the murder of the ten Belgian soldiers, Belgium withdraws from UNAMIR.

April 21, 1994 The U.N. Security Council votes unanimously to withdraw most of the UNAMIR troops, cutting the force from 2,500 to 270.
The International Red Cross estimates that tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Rwandans are now dead.

April 28, 1994 State Department spokeswoman Christine Shelley is asked whether what is happening in Rwanda is a genocide. She responds,
"...the use of the term 'genocide' has a very precise legal meaning, although it's not strictly a legal determination. There are other factors in there as well."
However, a secret intelligence report by the State Department issued as early as the end of April calls the killings a genocide.

April 30, 1994 The U.N. Security Council passes a resolution condemning the killing, but omits the word "genocide." Had the term been used, the U.N. would have been legally obliged to act to "prevent and punish" the perpetrators.
Tens of thousands of refugees flee into Tanzania, Burundi and Zaire. In one day, 250,000 Rwandans, mainly Hutus fleeing the advance of the Tutsi RPF, cross the border into Tanzania.

May 1994 The White House starts holding daily confidential briefings on Rwanda with various U.S. government organizations via secure video link.

May 2, 1994 Kofi Annan, head of U.N. peacekeeping, testifies before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee:
"When the Belgians left it was clear that the U.N. could not implement the mandate it had, and either the mandate had to be changed, or reinforcements introduced ... I do not know what the Council will decide after they have reviewed and reconsidered the situation today. If the council is going to recommend reinforcement, the reinforcement that goes in has to be well equipped, very mobile, and also able to protect itself. If we do not send in that kind of reinforcement ... then I'm not quite sure they'll be able to bring about a sort of law and order ... that will lead to the end of the massacres ... here we are watching people being deprived of the most fundamental of rights, the right to life, and yet we seem a bit helpless ..."

May 3, 1994 Clinton signs a Presidential Decision Directive (PDD 25), created after a review of the nation's peacekeeping policies and programs. PDD 25 aims to limit U.S. military involvement in international peacekeeping operations.

May 5, 1994 Madeline Albright, U.S. Representative to the U.N., testifies at a congressional hearing on funding of U.N. programs:
"But let me just tell you that on the Rwanda thing, it is my sense that to a great extent the Security Council and the U.N. missed the boat. We are now dealing with a situation way beyond anything that anybody expected. And as I mentioned earlier, what happened was that we were on one process where a smaller United Nations force, we felt, could deal with some of the issues in the area, and then all of a sudden with the shootdown of this airplane with the two presidents, it created an avalanche. And so it is hard to judge whether that particular operations started out properly."
Anthony Lake, National Security Advisor, gives a press briefing on PDD 25:
"When I wake up every morning and look at the headlines and the stories and the images on television of these conflicts, I want to work to end every conflict. I want to work to save every child out there. And I know the president does, and I know the American people do. But neither we nor the international community have the resources nor the mandate to do so. So we have to make distinctions. We have to ask the hard questions about where and when we can intervene. And the reality is that we cannot often solve other people's problems; we can never build their nations for them ..."

May 11, 1994 At a State Department briefing, Mike McCurry is asked, "Has this government been able to determine whether any of the acts committed in Rwanda since April 6 constitute genocide?" He answers, "I don't know that they've made any legal determination on that."

May 13, 1994 The U.N. Security Council prepares to vote on restoring UNAMIR's strength in Rwanda. However, Madeline Albright delays the vote for four days.

May 17, 1994 As the slaughter of the Tutsis continues, the U.N. finally agrees to send 5,500 troops to Rwanda. The Security Council resolution says, "acts of genocide may have been committed." However, the deployment of the mainly African U.N. forces is delayed because of arguments over who will pay the bill and provide the equipment.
Albright testifies at a Capitol Hill hearing on tensions in U.S.-U.N. relations and discusses the Security Council's resolution:
"... The United States has been a driving force in the provision of humanitarian assistance, in condemning the violence and in trying to organize a U.N. mission designed not simply to promise, but to deliver what it promises. Sending a U.N. force into the maelstrom in Rwanda without a sound plan of operations would be folly ... The resolution adopted last night requires the Secretary-General to report back before the next phase of deployment begins ... these choices are not easy ones. Emotions can produce wonderful speeches and stirring op-ed pieces. But emotions alone cannot produce policies that will achieve what they promise. If we do not keep commitments in line with capabilities, we will only further undermine U.N. credibility and support. The actions authorized last night will help. They may save lives. But ultimately, the future of Rwanda is in Rwandan hands."

May 19, 1994 The U.N. requests the U.S. provide 50 armored personnel carriers (APCs). However, there are arguments between the U.S. and the U.N. over the costs.

Mid-May The International Red Cross estimates 500,000 Rwandans have been killed.

May 25, 1994 Mike McCurry, State Department spokesman, is asked at a press briefing, "... Has the administration yet come to any decision on whether it can be described as genocide?"
He answers, "I'll have to confess, I don't know the answer to that. I know that the issue was under very active consideration. I think there was a strong disposition within the department here to view what has happened there; certainly, constituting acts of genocide that have occurred ..."

June 10, 1994 At a State Department briefing, spokesperson Christine Shelley is asked, "How many acts of genocide does it take to make genocide?"
"That's just not a question that I'm in a position to answer."
"Well, is it true that you have specific guidance not to use the word 'genocide' in isolation, but always to preface it with these words 'acts of'?"
"I have guidance which I try to use as best as I can. There are formulations that we are using that we are trying to be consistent in our use of. I don't have an absolute categorical prescription against something, but I have the definitions. I have phraseology which has been carefully examined and arrived at as best as we can apply to exactly the situation and the actions which have taken place ... "

June 22, 1994 With still no sign of U.N. deployment, the Security Council authorizes the deployment of French forces in south-west Rwanda--"Operation Turquoise." They create a "safe area" in territory controlled by the government. However, killings of Tutsis continue in the safe area.

Mid-July 1994 The Tutsi RPF forces capture Kigali. The Hutu government flees to Zaire, followed by a tide of refugees. The French end their mission and are replaced by Ethiopian U.N. troops. The RPF sets up an interim government of national unity in Kigali.
Although disease and more killings claim additional lives in the refugee camps, the genocide is over. An estimated 800,000 Rwandans have been killed in 100 days.

March 25, 1998 In Kigali, Rwanda President Clinton apologizes to the victims of genocide.
"... the international community, together with nations in Africa, must bear its share of responsibility for this tragedy, as well. We did not act quickly enough after the killing began. We should not have allowed the refugee camps to become safe havens for the killers. We did not immediately call these crimes by their rightful name: genocide. We cannot change the past. But we can and must do everything in our power to help you build a future without fear, and full of hope ..."

May 7, 1998 In Kigali, Rwanda U.N. Secretary-General, Kofi Annan apologizes to the Parliament of Rwanda
"... The world must deeply repent this failure. Rwanda's tragedy was the world's tragedy. All of us who cared about Rwanda, all of us who witnessed its suffering, fervently wish that we could have prevented the genocide. Looking back now, we see the signs which then were not recognized. Now we know that what we did was not nearly enough--not enough to save Rwanda from itself, not enough to honor the ideals for which the United Nations exists. We will not deny that, in their greatest hour of need, the world failed the people of Rwanda ..."

December 1998 A French parliamentary commission completes a nine-month inquiry into France's military involvement in Rwanda before and during the genocide. The commission concludes that most of the blame lies with the international community, particularly the United Nations and the United States. Although France is noted as making "errors of judgment," the government is absolved of responsibility for the killings.
Learn more about French actions in Rwanda in this excerpt from Philip Gourevitch's book, We Wish To Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With Our Families.

March 1999 A week before the fifth anniversary of the Rwanda genocide, the Paris-based International Federation of Human Rights Leagues and the U.S.-based Human Rights Watch release a report titled, "Leave None to Tell the Story." The 900-page report documents events before and during genocide. It also criticizes the U.N., the U.S., France and Belgium for knowing about preparations for the impending slaughter and not taking action to prevent the killings.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 937,000 seconds of silence (Rwanda revisited)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:43 am 
Offline
Winona Ryder wears my t-shirt on TV

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:10 pm
Posts: 2532
Location: Cleveland, OH
Chuck D Wrote:
Don't cheapen this with your third grade reactionary politics. I can out-liberal you with both hands tied behind my back. This goes beyond oil. Dig deeper.


How deep do you have to go? A genocide is happening and no one is doing anything about it.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:48 am 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
I agree, but reducing it snidely the way that you did rubbed me the wrong way. Lots of things are happening that we aren't doing anything about. We need more insight . . . we need more sight, and I am sick of the oil cliché, no matter how true it may be.

Deeper? Genocides happen - do we ever do anything about it? Discuss.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:44 am 
Offline
Bedroom Demos

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:00 am
Posts: 352
Yeah, the oil thing is overplayed.

The race thing is the fresh new way to look at it.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:45 am 
Offline
Winona Ryder wears my t-shirt on TV

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:10 pm
Posts: 2532
Location: Cleveland, OH
Chuck D Wrote:
I agree, but reducing it snidely the way that you did rubbed me the wrong way. Lots of things are happening that we aren't doing anything about. We need more insight . . . we need more sight, and I am sick of the oil cliché, no matter how true it may be.

Deeper? Genocides happen - do we ever do anything about it? Discuss.


Maybe nothing is done because of the fact that press coverage for many of these genocides is seriously lacking. For example, according to the American Journalism Review, last year the three major networks devoted five times as much coverage to Martha Stewart as to the genocide in Sudan. If people were actually exposed to these crimes, maybe the Bush administration (or any administration) might have a harder time ignoring contemporary genocide.

Or on the extremely pessemistic side, maybe our current leaders simply have no interest in human distress and human rights.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:02 am 
Offline
Go Platinum
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:51 am
Posts: 6327
It's easy to critise the response to the genocide in Rwanda but what exactly was the international community supposed to do?

If one group of people in a country wants to annihilate an other group of people in that same country it's pretty difficult to prevent it. The genocide was over in 100 days and was unexpected. Very little time to plan and execute a co-ordinated relief effort with military backing.

How long for instance would it take to ship tanks or APC's from the US to an African port and then transport and deploy them (I think I'm right in saying Rwanda is landlocked) to where they were needed?

The major world powers and the UN didn't deal with the situation very well but often, while it's difficult to accept, it's impossible to prevent evil from happening.

_________________
He has arrived, the mountebank from Bohemia, he has arrived, preceded by his reputation.
Evil Dr. K "The Jimmy McNulty of Payment Protection Insurance"


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:13 am 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
konstantinl Wrote:
it's impossible to prevent evil from happening.


probably true.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:48 am 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
dead alive Wrote:
The race thing is the fresh new way to look at it.


valid. i guess that was a cop-out. just trying to avoid the reality of human indifference, i suppose.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am 
Offline
frostingspoon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:50 pm
Posts: 15260
Location: Raised on bread and bologna.
In addition to Darrin's commentary which I agree with a great deal, cultural differences also play a big part. In many places there are certain ethnic subgroups or sects with unique histories, rivalries and priorities that are beyond the comprehension foreign observers, especially to the U.S. and Europeans.

The U.S. tends to take the brunt of these sort of absent or delayed interventions, but Europe also has quite the laundry list of either misunderstanding or ignoring the intricacies of internecine conflict. Just for starters, try Basque, all the Balkan states, Northern Ireland, Alsace, and pretty much all of the former European colonies of Asia and Africa like the Congo, Zimbabwe, Algeria and India/Pakistan.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's extremely difficult to fully grasp what is going on when it is actually happening. It's not too hard for an American to tell you why an Auburn fan and Alabama fan don't get along, or to explaing the anger by Latino and Asian business owners at the suggestion of an "African Town" shopping district in Detroit.

But to make the same judgement based on groups that are foreign not only in residence but also in cultural mores and traditions, it is much more difficult to assess the situation and determine if it is in fact grave or a passing shift in power.

_________________
A poet and philosopher, Mr. Marcus is married and is a proud parent.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:15 am 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
fair enough. should the scope, then, still be something remote and incomprehensible, or should we perhaps take these events more seriously than okc and 9/11?

cultural relativism is unsatisfactory.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:36 am 
Offline
Go Platinum

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:26 pm
Posts: 6459
I don't think it's an issue of cultural relativism. 9/11 and OKC happened here. Granted, the scale was nothing as obscene as what's been seen elsewhere in the world, but the fact that it happened to us, I believe, allows for heightened reaction.

I by no means seek to dismiss the impact of atrocities around the world, and I believe there is great value in educating all people about the evils perpetrated by their fellow humans. I don't believe turning a blind eye is an appropriate response, I wish that people could learn from these atrocities, in order that they not be repeated in the future. Also, through study and education, we will learn how to deal with these situations, so that a Haiti, Rwanda, Somalia are not repeated and that intervention actual helps rather than exacerbates the problem.

Invariably, the question of U.S. intervention is raised--it's already been alluded here with the flippant "no oil" comment. My thoughts on the matter of U.S. intervention are this:

The U.S. is incapable of intervening in every conflict around globe. That leaves us with a choice: not to intervene at all, or to choose in which areas we intervene.

It is clear that the first option, the strict Monroe Doctrine, is not palatable, and indeed, U.S. intervention has proven to be quite a good thing in the last 100 years--sure we've made mis-steps, but by and large our track record is pretty good.

This leaves us with the unenviable quandry of how to determine whom we help. Unfortunately, we are forced to make this decision at the onset. Hindsight will always show instances when we blew it, underestimated the potential for disaster, etc. Again, study and education will hopefully enable us to intervene more effecitively--sooner and with an appropriate and well-reasoned plan of action.

Also, one of the challenges facing the U.S. is that we change regimes every four or eight years. One President may view it as his mandate to intervene, his successor may believe his mandate is to withdraw. It's not an excuse, per se, more an explanation. I'm in no way suggesting we end term limits, I'm merely identfying one of the costs attached to them.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:39 am 
Offline
Winona Ryder wears my t-shirt on TV

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:10 pm
Posts: 2532
Location: Cleveland, OH
Billzebub Wrote:
It is clear that the first option, the strict Monroe Doctrine, is not palatable, and indeed, U.S. intervention has proven to be quite a good thing in the last 100 years--sure we've made mis-steps, but by and large our track record is pretty good.


I'm not sure about that. If anything our intervention into other countries has generally caused more suffering than good over the last century.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:35 pm 
Offline
Garage Band
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:52 am
Posts: 606
Location: Music Row / Country Hell
konstantinl Wrote:
It's easy to critise the response to the genocide in Rwanda but what exactly was the international community supposed to do?

If one group of people in a country wants to annihilate an other group of people in that same country it's pretty difficult to prevent it. The genocide was over in 100 days and was unexpected. Very little time to plan and execute a co-ordinated relief effort with military backing.

How long for instance would it take to ship tanks or APC's from the US to an African port and then transport and deploy them (I think I'm right in saying Rwanda is landlocked) to where they were needed?

The major world powers and the UN didn't deal with the situation very well but often, while it's difficult to accept, it's impossible to prevent evil from happening.


If UN Peacekeepers are already there . . . then it's pretty easy, isn't it. I mean, they have guns, and genocide (by machete, which does not beat gun) is antithetical to peace. So do your fucking job and it's practically cake.

_________________
"Whither goest thou, America, in thy shiny car in the night?" - Ti Jean


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:43 pm 
Offline
Second Album Slump

Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:15 pm
Posts: 2206
Location: hereabouts
fancypants Wrote:
I highly highly highly recommend the book "we wish to inform you that tomorrow we will be killed with our families", which is about the Rwandan genocide.


Seriously, this book knocked me flat when it came out. I've given away like five copies and I always buy a new one.

It is also worth noting, for those of us unlikely to actually go to Sudan and do anything, that more than one US congressional rep said that if every one of them had had 100 constituents bitching about rwanda we might have bothered. So pester your reps about Sudan. It really is the least you can do.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:09 pm 
Offline
Alcoholic National Treasure

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:12 pm
Posts: 17155
DunwoodyDude Wrote:
At the Don Bosco school


not to draw away from the tragedy and all, but that is so freakin' awesome.

_________________
Are you kidding? I have no talents. Nothing. I was very well educated to be an idiot. And I was a very good student.


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:17 pm 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
Good post, Billzebub. Thanks.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:39 pm 
Offline
Alcoholic National Treasure

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:12 pm
Posts: 17155
i would rate our track record as less than pretty good, however.

_________________
Are you kidding? I have no talents. Nothing. I was very well educated to be an idiot. And I was a very good student.


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:00 pm 
Offline
Worldwide Phenomenon

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm
Posts: 3158
Location: San Francisco, CA
Cotton Wrote:
i would rate our track record as less than pretty good, however.


our track record pretty much is for shit.

_________________
Radcliffe Wrote:
I'm kinda like Jesus in that respect. And Allah. Jesus and Allah all rolled up into a single ball of seething bitter rage.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:17 pm 
Offline
Go Platinum

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:26 pm
Posts: 6459
Chuck D Wrote:
Cotton Wrote:
i would rate our track record as less than pretty good, however.


our track record pretty much is for shit.


I don't think that's true. Sure, there are some high-profile failures, but don't lose sight of the successes:

Contrast:

West Germany to East Germany
South Korea to North Korea
Europe under German occupation (both times) to Europe liberated from German occupation
The Balkans of the late-80's/early 90's to the Balkans now


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:19 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:50 pm
Posts: 15260
Location: Raised on bread and bologna.
Also throw in the reconstruction of Japan. That transformation over the past 60 years is pretty remarkable.

_________________
A poet and philosopher, Mr. Marcus is married and is a proud parent.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ] 

Board index : Music Talk : Rock/Pop

Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Style by Midnight Phoenix & N.Design Studio
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.