Woman have a right to own their decisions.

I always said it could be a problem. I could go on, but I dont' feel like discussing this anymore. I'll end it by saying we're closer than you think. I got nothing but love and respect for ya (meaning all the women).

Hmm, don't know if I agree with this as there were quite a few Georgia Tech students who used to work at the Cheetah III in Atlanta, and it was to make money to pay for school. From the girls I knew, it was a short-lived job, got them a ton of money, and avoided the need for loans. They all graduated and went on to do bigger and better things in life. Yes, it is a shame that they couldn't get a "regular" job making as much money during school, but I'm sure the flexibility in hours helped as well.

As for clubs, I could care less if my husband went to them. Thing is, he doesn't like going to them unless I go with him. That's only happened once, and like rparis said, it was at a sleazy club in Portland-- the only kind that seems to exist around here. I am a long way from Atlanta in that regard! Guys like looking at women's bodies, just the way women do. I have to say that I've never been a Chippendales kind of girl, or had calendars with sexy firemen or any of that stuff.

And Senator, yes, women do look at men and think, "Wow, great bod!" but in my experience, we usually look at the face first. And I don't think it's a men only thing to admire women's bodies-- let's face facts here... women are just more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than men could ever hope to be!

slight change in topic: A couple we know went to see the new Cirque du Soleil erotica show in Vegas. They said it was worth every penny. I think Bravo is doing a series about it. I'm intrigued!

I'd say any tug on the conscience that results from the knowledge that pretty much only women feel the need to strip for cash is justified. You can explain this without reference to historical oppression. You could say, for example, that men are more visual, that testosterone causes us to be turned on by things that women are not, etc. But it would be naive to think, for example, that as many women would be in stripping and prostitution today if men hadn't held the strings for so long.

I would also say that regardless of whether your friend's wife considers her own situation degrading or not, the more we tacitly approve "whore mongering" and "dicky waving," whether we look at it as taking advantage of them or not, the more whore mongers and dicky wavers we're likely to produce.

So what does that make the guy who goes to the male strip shows with the girls at a bachelorette party?

This is fine, but if we've prejudiced those decisions toward enterprises created for the pathetic self-gratification of men, it's worth thinking about reworking some of the motivating factors, especially if you can do that by, say, not going to strip clubs.

yeah i know a lot of girls who used stripping as a way to pay their way through school

then drop out

then get implants to make more money stripping

then become cokeheads/coke whores

then go to rehab

then fuck that up

then get abduced by their family in Nedraska who thought she was dancing professionally as a ballerina and locked in a garage for a month until she was clean.

for every earnest, booklearnin' stripper who dances for the money they need to live a productive life (and they are definitely out there) there's three or more that run similar to the tale listed above.

I agree with this. But I'll still pause at a nice female figure.

Sex Object is bad word, and I think it can mean something different to everyone. Probably a poor choice on my part. I don't think what I meant by it and what Katie meant were the same.

All I really know is that this has never been a problem in my life. I work pretty much with all women, and it's been great. It's never really been an issue for me so I probaby don't have fully realized views on the subject. It's not like I spend my time thinking about the plight of the American Stripper.

i feel the same way about church, but people have to make their own decisions and deal with the repurcussions. i don't think that there exists any undue pressure here.

You are talking about reprogramming genetics my man. I don't love strip clubs, but three beers and me derris and bloor draggin yer ass to the Pink Pony and I am sure I would hear things like "Goddamn she is fine," coming out of your mouth.

Stop being so self righteous, or just plain righteous for that matter. It is entirely possible for guys to enjoy strip clubs without secretly wanting to debase women, or go on a spree of sex crimes.

These possibilities do exist, trust me.

Dude, what is the matter with you?

Ahhh. Its not even worth it; I'm sure you are a very happy and well adjusted person and will make an excellent whipping boy/scratching post someday.....

I don't disagree with that, on an individual basis, but I'm saying that given current social dynamics, it may not be possible for a guy to go to a strip club without, to some small degree, contributing to the debasement of women unintentionally.

I also have to beg off of any definition of men that assumes an inability to control the urge to have women who don't give a shit about us take off their clothes in order to give us a hard on. I think some of that is social programming, even if some of it is genetic.

What current social dynamics? the one in which states like AL, GA and MS can have female Lt. Gov's, TX can have a female Senator, Cali 2 female senators, and Washington state 2 female senators and a gov?

Wasn't it like, just a few years ago where stripping was the new empowerment because it was a women using her own body how she saw fit (or is that porn?)

Like I said, bro, we live in a gray world, not black and white. It's not Madonnas or whores, rapists or monks...most of us somewhere in between.

I thought Madonna was a whore? I'm so confused.

yeah, and racism been pretty much dead since Maynard Jackson, right?

i don't have particularly strong feelings for either side of this argument, but to say having women in politics erases and sort of social caste (bad choice of words, but you get my meaning) is way off.

I don't think he is trying to say it's erasing anything. Just that at one time women who wanted to make their own money and choices in life had very limited oppurtuntity. Now we've advance to the point where they can hold some of the supposedly most respected jobs. 20 yrs ago, some women had to choose secretary, waitress, or whore.

20 years ago it was 1985.

ha. Didn't think that one out. I pretty much always use 20 yrs. ago as my default reference to a bygone era.

haha, yeah i read right past it at first, but then i thought "Wait, wasn't i waiting on Back to the Future II to come out by 1985? that doesn't seem like that long ago".

have you ever gone to see her?

If I was a hott chick, I'd be stripping right NOW to pay off my student loans, and get a useful degree other than this piece of shit music ed. degree.

Yep, but jest to be an asshole....

Actually, first time I was ever dragged to the Gold Club was by him and a group of other friends. Then of course, one of my friends, to be a dick, got her to dance for us.

I do not find her attractive, but i did find the whole escapade HI-LARYY-US.

But, you gotta know my friend (Hecky -- for bloor, derris and busty) he is a grade A asshole, and he deserves it. Whether she deserves it, is a different story.

duuuuuude

Ohhh, yeah you talkin' about Mary Pong, right?

Gahh. VC

yo daddy killed she uncle

No, she was just acting like one as a way to empower her career to new lows.