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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:25 am 
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i;m sobering up somehwat. But i bought a whole carton and the mate i was sposed to go halfs with had lady troublesd and thus backed out. I deserve another goddamn drink.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:31 am 
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Sketch Wrote:
My London workmate and I may do just that. Public transport is pretty much shut down, so he may have to stay at my place tonight. Picking up some bevvies on the way home just may be in cards.

Thanks for the well-wishes, all. Keep 'em comin'. All news from my friends has been positive, and I gotta trust it will stay that way.


glad to hear you're OK bro...I hope everything is fine with your buddies


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:47 am 
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How tall is Jacques Chirac? I thought GWB was in the 6-2 range, and I just saw some picture where Chirac is considerably taller. Anyone have any idea?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:56 am 
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konstantinl Wrote:
I can't wait to have my basic freedoms slowly whittled away in the aftermath of this.


Exactly. It just gets worse and worse day by day.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:00 pm 
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Woke up to this on the radio. Very sad state. Colin, glad you're OK. Didn't there used to be a poster that lived in Camden?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:00 pm 
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Things must be way worse out there on the West coast. I haven't had any of my basic freedoms suspended. You on house arrest out there, Saint?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:03 pm 
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discostu Wrote:
Woke up to this on the radio. Very sad state. Colin, glad you're OK. Didn't there used to be a poster that lived in Camden?

If you're talking about swiateck's friend, she might lurk but only posted on CMJ once or twice. She moved to the country recently but still works in the city. I'm supposed to be hanging out with her on Saturday but have not heard from her today (anything on your end, Chad?).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:03 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
How tall is Jacques Chirac? I thought GWB was in the 6-2 range, and I just saw some picture where Chirac is considerably taller. Anyone have any idea?


Bush is like 5'11...remember he is the only shorter candidate to win (twice)

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harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:07 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
Things must be way worse out there on the West coast. I haven't had any of my basic freedoms suspended. You on house arrest out there, Saint?


Nah, but laws like the Patriot Act are easier to pass when the public is in a state of fear provoked by terror attacks. However, many people DID in fact have their basic freedoms suspended in the wake of 9/11. It infuriates me that murderers have the ability to affect our free society once the climate of fear becomes deeply ingrained.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:23 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
"[A]cknowledging that an event will probably effect [you] personally at some stage" does not make you solipsistic, but thinking first of potential personal inconveniences when people are dead and dying in the street is a solipsistic response. Isn't this the brunt of the criticism of Western foreign policy? That we think first of ourselves instead of considering the more immediate effects to those around us?

You can rightly criticize Blair for inciting the ire of the terrorists. But the people responsible are at least ostensibly connected to the same people who bombed the world trade center - people from countries which the the US was not occupying. It can be argued that US foreign policy toward the Middle East had a rocky history in the decades preceding the attack, but hardly that we had so imposed ourselves upon the Afghanis or the Saudis that we could have expected an attack. That attack was an aggression based on a violent ideology, and not a response to US occupation. Which is to say, the UK's uninvolvement wouldn't have guaranteed its safety. Which is why it is ridiculous to say that Blair should be able to guarantee that safety.


Obviously my initial reaction was one of disgust, sympathy for the victims and deep depression. I'd like to think you would know that (unless you have a very low opinion of me) so don't I think that point is really valid. It's just picking at semantics.

You also know very well that while occupation of Iraq isn't the root cause of Islamist terrorism, it has undoubtly enflamed the situation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:24 pm 
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timmyjoe42 Wrote:
solipisim

Main Entry: so·lip·sism
Pronunciation: 'sO-l&p-"si-z&m, 'sä-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin solus alone + ipse self
: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing

Damn smart kids.


Even with the definition I still don't get it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:25 pm 
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Sen. Sherman LooGAR Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
How tall is Jacques Chirac? I thought GWB was in the 6-2 range, and I just saw some picture where Chirac is considerably taller. Anyone have any idea?


Bush is like 5'11...remember he is the only shorter candidate to win (twice)


I think that solves it. I didn't know he was the shortest in both.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Sen. Sherman LooGAR Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
How tall is Jacques Chirac? I thought GWB was in the 6-2 range, and I just saw some picture where Chirac is considerably taller. Anyone have any idea?


Bush is like 5'11...remember he is the only shorter candidate to win (twice)


GWB is five feet eleven inches tall in the same way that Pedro Martinez is -- only in the media guide. Meet him face-to-face, Senator, and you'd probably have a legitimate foot (meaning, all twelve inches) on the bastard.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:33 pm 
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konstantinl Wrote:
Obviously my initial reaction was one of disgust, sympathy for the victims and deep depression. I'd like to think you would know that (unless you have a very low opinion of me) so don't I think that point is really valid. It's just picking at semantics.

You also know very well that while occupation of Iraq isn't the root cause of Islamist terrorism, it has undoubtly enflamed the situation.


I have a high opinion of you, which is the only reason I'm arguing the point. In this particular forum, your initial contribution left out those things, and I'm of the opinion that any discussion is shaped as much by what is omitted as by what is included, which is why most political threads turn into flame wars. I don't doubt that your real initial reaction was less one-dimensional, but I think that all of our discussions here are poorer for leaving out the other dimensions. I know, I know - "it's just the Internet," but most of us talk more about politics and other things that are important to us here than we do in real life, and our discussions will be much more authentic and meaningful if we have the courtesy to frame our opinions thoughtfully instead of just spouting off and getting pissed at one another.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:40 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
I know, I know - "it's just the Internet," but most of us talk more about politics and other things that are important to us here than we do in real life, and our discussions will be much more authentic and meaningful if we have the courtesy to frame our opinions thoughtfully instead of just spouting off and getting pissed at one another.


Not fun. Fuck you.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:48 pm 
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Glad to hear you're safe, Sketch. This is just horrible and makes me terribly sad. Well wishes commencing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:57 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
konstantinl Wrote:
Obviously my initial reaction was one of disgust, sympathy for the victims and deep depression. I'd like to think you would know that (unless you have a very low opinion of me) so don't I think that point is really valid. It's just picking at semantics.

You also know very well that while occupation of Iraq isn't the root cause of Islamist terrorism, it has undoubtly enflamed the situation.


I have a high opinion of you, which is the only reason I'm arguing the point. In this particular forum, your initial contribution left out those things, and I'm of the opinion that any discussion is shaped as much by what is omitted as by what is included, which is why most political threads turn into flame wars. I don't doubt that your real initial reaction was less one-dimensional, but I think that all of our discussions here are poorer for leaving out the other dimensions. I know, I know - "it's just the Internet," but most of us talk more about politics and other things that are important to us here than we do in real life, and our discussions will be much more authentic and meaningful if we have the courtesy to frame our opinions thoughtfully instead of just spouting off and getting pissed at one another.


I'm not getting pissed off at all. It's far to easy to have an opinion. In an ideal world there should always be someone around to hector you and make you justify your position and, of course, vice versa.

Although my position is essentially the same you did make me think about some things which proves argument is a good thing - provided it's conducted with respect and is an exchange of ideas rather than insults.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:01 pm 
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I also thought immediately of you, Sketchy. Good thoughts and well wishes are being sent. Oh, and a dorky internet ((hug)).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:05 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
I haven't had any of my basic freedoms suspended


what about the right to demonstrate, as has been removed from ANY sort of appearance by the president in this country. The Denver Three, fenced-in "free speech zones"... i'm not trying to provoke an argument, but there definitel has been something of a loss in basic liberties in recent years.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:11 pm 
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Cotton Wrote:
HaqDiesel Wrote:
I haven't had any of my basic freedoms suspended


what about the right to demonstrate, as has been removed from ANY sort of appearance by the president in this country. The Denver Three, fenced-in "free speech zones"... i'm not trying to provoke an argument, but there definitel has been something of a loss in basic liberties in recent years.


That's fair. I would say you're on shaky ground arguing that the president's failure to appear in public is a restriction of free speech, but there is definitely an argument that creating "free speech zones" is. However, I think that "basic liberty" is being used pretty casually here, and you have to define what it is. It's well-established that you don't have the right to protest just anywhere (for example on someone else's private property) just because you have the right to free speech, but we don't say that the basic liberty is lost. Is the right to protest in every conceivable "public" space inherent in that basic right? Maybe, but I'm not sure that the constitutional law of any period in US history would bear out that assertion.


Last edited by HaqDiesel on Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:12 pm 
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A buddy of mine was 5 car lengths behind one of the buses when it went up. He just got home. If I were him, I wouldn't bother with capitalization or puncutation either.

Quote:
i've just got in managed to get out about an hour and a half ago needless to say its been a very disturbing and weird day my thoughts go out to all the victims and having witnessed it first hand i must say well done to all the police and the emergency services up there they were fantastic keeping everyone as informed as they could in such stressfull times i still cant get my head around whats happened there were people wandering round amlessley in shock with cuts etc this morning me and alot of other people tried to help the police by pointing people in the right direction for medical treatment. i still cant get the picture of that bus out my head it was terrible to think only a few years ago i was a bus driver london seems really eeary people just cant believe its happened i am fine still in shock but fine otherwise i really need a drink now once again around of appulase must go out to all the emergency services london proved today that even in the darkest hour we can come together and help each other when we need to well done london


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:19 pm 
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well, this is true. But a lot of these are public appearances. The whole social security tour he just did was supposed to be open to all, but then they had people scanning the parking lots to keep people with leftist bumper stickers out of the open forum. No, these aren't the right to practice religion or be free of persecution based on ethnic background, etc... but there is definitely a loss or liberty. While it might not be basic, it's toeing the line. This is the sort of thing that can easily snowball, though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:20 pm 
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Maybe I've been totally desensitized, but 40 people seems like an awfully low bodycount for four simultaneous explosions...

glad to hear you're safe Sketch!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Cotton Wrote:
well, this is true. But a lot of these are public appearances. The whole social security tour he just did was supposed to be open to all, but then they had people scanning the parking lots to keep people with leftist bumper stickers out of the open forum. No, these aren't the right to practice religion or be free of persecution based on ethnic background, etc... but there is definitely a loss or liberty. While it might not be basic, it's toeing the line. This is the sort of thing that can easily snowball, though.


The thing is though, the right to free speech isn't the same as the right to be heard or the right to a captive audience.

I think that avoiding differing viewpoints or those who question ethics or policy is a bit silly, but that doesn't mean it's a violation of anyone's rights.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:30 pm 
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Sketch Wrote:
discostu Wrote:
Woke up to this on the radio. Very sad state. Colin, glad you're OK. Didn't there used to be a poster that lived in Camden?

If you're talking about swiateck's friend, she might lurk but only posted on CMJ once or twice. She moved to the country recently but still works in the city. I'm supposed to be hanging out with her on Saturday but have not heard from her today (anything on your end, Chad?).

UPDATE: She wasn't in town... had a job interview, so she's fine.

Good call RE: Gardener (apologies to him when he reads this). IIRC, he's in Milton-Keynes, about 50 miles north out of town. Truly, I'm not much closer, but he might have friends/family affected. Hope to hear from him sooner than later.


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