I was just fucking around and wouldn't expect many people to pick St. Louis if they looked at a map and said they could go anywhere, but I think you are selling the town short. Don't know what you consider the best club in town, but of a few places that closed I'd rank maybe one as a serious loss, Mississippi Nights, and it was just a big box to hold medium sized shows, hardly a regular place to go. The other local places that have closed down over the last couple years have been readily replaced.

Plenty of non-chain restaurants, unless you hang out in the suburbs. I can walk you down a couple block and find non-chain restaurants serving Vietnamese, Thai, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Nicaraguan, and more in short order. Or, you can go to The Hill, an Italian neighborhood where family owned restaurants have been in business for 50 years and more in many cases. Frankly once you get in the city limits, the claim of nothing but chain restaurants is patently absurd.

Plenty of people drinking lots more than AB stuff. At least 2 of my usual bars actually don't even serve any AB products in support of a past and current strike. Or, I can run by a place with about 30 different micro-brews and imports on draft. Sure, you've got your locals whose families have made their living at AB for generations who are fiercely loyal, but that's just a sliver of the town, really.

Other things going for the town include an excellent zoo, free to visit...a solid art museum, also free to visit...a botanical gardens which is as good as any I've seen anywhere..a top class symphony...some solid sports teams if you're into that kinda thing.

If all your friends do is hang out drinking AB and go to chain restaurants, I'd call that more a problem with your friends than St. Louis...plenty more to do here if you want something else.

Does it have as much to do as Chicago? Of course not. But, you can get a decent apartment for about what it costs to rent a parking space in the City of Chicago. I got plenty of friends in Chicago who love to go on about how much there is to do in the city. Of course, most of them sit home more than anything else because just trying to pay your rent takes up the money you'd spend going out...that and $5 beers at the bars, $25 and up charges to visit a museum or other institution and all the other expenses of living there.

So, is St. Louis heaven...best place to live in the country? Probably not, especially if you got the cash to splash someplace fancier. But, if you want a mid-sized city with plenty of nightlife, easily accessible cultural institutions and a very low cost of living, you could do a lot worse.

Yeah, I was referring to Misssissippi Nights (which was a great club, or at least had some great shows that I saw). And, as far as hanging out in the suburbs, that's pretty much all there is to St. Louis -- kinda like Detroit -- with the exception of the University Park area, I suppose.

Of course, that said, it's been a few years since I've made any sort of regular trips to the area.

And yes, the rents are cheap.

But hell, you all have the Cardinals, so major negative that trumps any of the positives that you may have.

minneapolis:

pros:
the extremes of all 4 seasons
bike-able
best midwestern music scene
lots of cheap / free shows
beautiful lakes / mississippi river / tons of parks
smoking ban
rush hour is actually about an hour
lots of safe neighborhoods
medium priced

cons:
craig finn's voice in your head every time you read street signs

Isn't St. Louis only #1 in crime because of East St. Louis, which is actually in Illinois?

Minneapolis, since cats missed the cons:

-no other major cities within a day's drive
-blue laws (3.2 beer, 2am bars)
-mass transit kind of sucks
-smoking ban

But I do love it for most the of reasons he gave: clean, liberal, arty, safe, diverse (by Minnesota standards).

Sans the Mississippi River, that pretty much describes what I like about Omaha and Lincoln, except we don't have any shitty Pro-sports teams.

No....most of the crime in St. Louis is centered around North St. Louis and a few pockets on the South Side. East St. Louis is counted separately...and is my home town fuckers, so respect the east side. Honestly, these days East St. Louis has lost so much population it's more a sad ghost town than really dangerous.

And Todd, if all your friends go is hang around the suburbs, of course St. Louis seems lame. Suburbs here are just like suburbs everywhere, strip malls and subdivisions...yes, boring. I mean even up in Chicago the burbs ain't nothing but strip malls.

begging for the parody thread, "Obners: Sell Me On Your Titties"

Charlotte:

Pros:
- Decent sized city (1.5MM)
- Not awful traffic
- Lower cost of living compared to major cities
- Good development and growth, even in the downturn
- Lots of good restaurants
- Beers are cheap
- Lots of young people
- Close proximity to the beach (3-4 hours) and mountains (2 hours)

Cons:
- Not a very good music scene
- Public transportation is still lacking (new light rail, though)
- Lots of bankers and yuppies
- Annoying UNC fans

Pros:
- My titties are not going to sag to my knees after we make babies.
- A lot of people think a handful is just the right size
- Bra is optional
- 2 nipples

Cons:
- Not quite big enough for a tittyf**k
- Hardly noticeable in Winter clothing

Atlanta:

simultaneously ugly and hot, mildly retarded, and often very gay.

berlin:

nice, not very loud, lots of concerts and lots of hip elektro parties with 80s induced girlclothing, public transport 24 hours, by far big enough to not meet always the same people somewhere you don't want to meet, small enough to meet people randomly you know just a bit, quite green with a park in every district.

m.

Memphis always reminded me of Baltimore.

PROS:

Nashville needs good graphic designers. There is a young, creative community here and it's still affordable. The scenery/atmosphere is excellent and the vibe is always laid-back.
You're also *lucky* that you grew up in Louisiana because the whole Southern conservatism thing is something you've learned to live with. It exists here, but no one is in your face about it unless you go looking for it. Nashville itself is centrist. There are always ways to avoid the more annoying population.
No State Income Tax

East Nashville is a small area of town across the river that is the center of the creative community.

music - we do get passed over by summer shed tours, because our amphitheatre closed down, but we get really unique stuff that other cities outside of NYC and LA can't touch, simply because of the enormous amount of musicians in town. Also, for my money, the best venue in the Southeast (some would argue the USA) is right here, the Ryman Auditorium.

You're centrally located in Nashville: Gulf Coast, St. Louis, Asheville, Atlanta, Louisville, Chicago, Indianapolis are all within driving distance.

CONS:
Traffic can suck. Nothing compared to the D.C/Atlanta areas, but there are some SHITTY drivers in Nashville. Just try to live within the perimeter and you'll rarely witness it (unless you're driving on West End Ave.)

The best bars in town are music venues (could be seen as a PRO, I guess?). Beers are normally priced. There are lots of two for one nights in town and there are still places where you can get a beer for under $3.

Stay away from Downtown (except the essential trips to the Ryman, Robert's, Layla's and the occasional Preds game @ Sommet Center), and you wouldn't even realize this place is country music industry capital.

High Sales Tax - 9.75%







I'll go on record as defending St. Louis after one visit. I really liked it. Downtown blows (except the Fox, Sheldon and City Museum), but I thought the city possessed a lot of character. I would even go as far as to call it a "hidden gem".

NYC: big, expensive, and corrupt.

Nashville has always been on my starter list. I probably know a half dozen people there now. Hell, if I could score a gig at Hatch Show Print, I might leave tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone who's pitched in so far, and those who might later. Just for grins, here's....

Annapolis, Maryland
PROS:
- Midway between Baltimore & DC, easy drives of 40 minutes or so. You can hit and quit the city, without actually dealing with the baggage, specifically crime.
- 2 Hours from the beach, if that's your thing. Mountains not far either.
- Most of the attractions in Baltimore & DC are free.
- Navy Football
- Bars here are a little frou-frou for my tastes, but some are decent
- Water, water everywhere
- Economy isn't that bad, and BRAC should bring in thousands of new residents and jobs
- Sitting between two major markets, you get two of everything. Baseball teams, football teams, network tv stations, gobs of colleges.

CONS:
- Pricey
- I live close to one of two bridges over the Chesapeake Bay. Beach traffic definitely influences weekend plans.
- Annapolis is a cow town, even though it hates to admit it.
- Traffic in general
- Overdeveloping like crazy, with no real plan in sight
- pretentious
- lots of white people

i see this as a bumper sticker

Montgomery:
Pros:
No Traffic
Cheap Living
Cheap Housing
Most of the things you would want from a major city/suburb (Starbucks/Publix)
New Convention Center getting acts like George Jones and Travis Tritt
New-ish AA Baseball Stadium feat. 2 time defending Sally League Champion Montgomery Biscuits
Lots of recent growth and investment means lots of opportunity.
Cons:
No traffic because there's nothing to do
cheap living because there's nothing to do
Them
Conservative Douche Scale off the Charts

I liked Annapolis when I was there, the main disadvantage I see is the price of housing.

These 3 made me laugh.
Is having a Publix, Travis Tritt, and a team called the Biscuits getting the tourist money or what?
You forgot to mention the shit-ton of nice golf courses. I was down there earlier in the year to play for 3 days. It was pretty nice, but we got stuck eating at chain restaurants the whole time because everyone was so hyped on golf and the hotel that no one investigated grub.

There are some good non-chain joints in Montgomery but you really gotta know your way around.

TO answer your first question: big time. I forgot the RTJ Golf Trail. You should have asked, I could recc. many good local joints, in Montgomery and surrounding areas (not just BBQ either)

I was gonna ask about this. I miss the killer meat and 3 places. I have, however, found some goddam good bbq up here, at Blue Ribbon in Arlington. That shit's the real motherucking deal, and if you tell them to package your take-out for a motorcycle, they're on top of it.

I don't even know what the good non-chains in Montgomery are besides Tomatino's.

When I go to visit my parents in Prattville, I have less and less reason to drive into Montgomery. I'm gonna check out the Vietnamese place Gar mentioned in another thread next time I go, though.

La Jolla
Michael's Table (ehhh)
Nancy Patterson's
Jubilee Seafood *
City Grill *
Sinclair's - good salads and martinis
Ruddle's
Garrett's
The New place at the downtown hotel/convention center

of course, that's about it, but they are pretty good.