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 Post subject: And you thought you hated the Label Heads before!!!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:10 pm 
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Royalties proposed for booming used market as new-CD sales stagnate

By Frank Green
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

June 14, 2002

What's the difference between a shiny new compact disc and one that's been unwrapped and played a few times?

To Lucy Estrella's ear, none. To her pocketbook, a lot.

"It's cheap to buy used discs. . . . They sound just the same as new ones," said Estrella, who browsed through the stacks at Off the Record in Hillcrest earlier this week. "I can buy two used ones for less than the price of a new one."

Such sentiments have struck sour notes in the recording industry, which is concerned about the growing retail presence of used-CD stores and Internet businesses such as Amazon.com, which sell both new and used recordings.

The industry worries that the expanding used market is cannibalizing new-CD sales, as well as promoting piracy by allowing consumers to buy, record and sell back discs while retaining their own digitally pristine copies.

One proposed remedy being debated by record label executives is federal legislation requiring used-CD retailers to pay royalties on secondary sales of albums.

A cover story in last week's issue of the music trade publication Billboard quoted several executives who said they favor the establishment of an agency that would exert a flat royalty rate – say, 6 percent or so – on retailers' sales of CDs sold over and over again.

The Recording Industry Association of America has not taken an official position on the issue.

You can see the boom in less-than-mint-condition merchandise in at least 40 record stores in San Diego County, including 17 Wherehouse Music outlets and 13 Music Trader shops. That's more than double the number of used-CD stores in the area in 1992.

Even music retail giant Tower Records has begun test-marketing the sale of used discs in Seattle, Berkeley and 11 other markets where it operates, although not here.

"We're responding to the competition in college towns," said Stan Gorman, Tower's chief operating officer.

Used-CD shops typically pay customers between $3 and $5 for their old discs, then sell them for $8 to $10. New CDs can be priced as high as $18 apiece.

The focus on the used-CD market comes at a time when new-CD sales continue to stagnate in the United States. Total sales last year were about $13 billion, unchanged from 2000.

Sales have been hurt largely by a surge in piracy, which the National Federation of the Phonographic Industry estimates has cost the music business $4.2 billion in lost revenue last year.

It is unclear how big the used-CD market is because many retailers are mom-and-pop entrepreneurs who do not report sales. There also is a large market in used product at swap meets.

A spokesman for the Recording Industry Association of America, which represents the major record labels, said it is especially concerned that many used CDs are being bought by people who "rip" the music using widely available CD-burner devices, then sell the used CDs back to the secondhand stores where they were originally purchased.

"That's an example of why labels are experimenting with copy-protection technology" that blocks duplication, said RIAA spokesman Jonathan Lamy.

But the idea of labels assessing part of the proceeds of used-CD sales is already drawing the wrath of independent record shop owners.

Phil Galloway, co-owner of Off the Record, said the proposal is another example of the record industry "shaking down" consumers for all it can get during a time of decline.

"On the first-time purchase, the label and the musician made their profit," noted Galloway, who with his business partner opened the first used-CD stores in San Diego County at the advent of the CD format in the mid-1980s. "You don't see royalties collected on used cars."

Galloway said royalty payments would force store owners to pass on the costs to customers.

Likewise, an executive at CD Warehouse Inc. – the Oklahoma City-based owner of the Music Trader chain – said the used-CD market helps to spur consumers' interest in artists' new releases.

"When Alanis Morissette's new album was released, we had a lot of customers in our stores looking for her (catalog album) 'Jagged Little Pill,' " said Matt Allen, the company's vice president.

CD Warehouse franchises and operates 289 used-CD shops in 35 states under the names Disc Go Round and CD Exchange, among other brands.

Allen said the industry's target audience has changed in recent years from college students trying to build inexpensive record collections to mostly male music fans between the ages of 18 and 34 looking for out-of-print and hard-to-find copies.

"We largely carry niche music that the Best Buys of the world don't have on their shelves anymore," Allen said.

Several customers shopping at the Music Trader on University Avenue this week said that although the prices for discs may be good, there are drawbacks to rummaging through the bins.

For one thing, the stores don't stock many new titles. And some major artists aren't represented at all.

"The program booklets are worn and torn a lot of times from overuse," said one shopper.

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 Post subject: Re: And you thought you hated the Label Heads before!!!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Pagoda Wrote:
June 14, 2002


I knew I had read this before, especially when i read the used car analogy.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:27 pm 
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My hunch is that they won't be able to do this. Unless they can prove that you've kept a copy, you're passing on the license to someone else according to your fair use rights.

Right?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Umm. We already bought the damn thing. It's not trackable the way radio play is and it's just so wrong, anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:29 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
My hunch is that they won't be able to do this. Unless they can prove that you've kept a copy, you're passing on the license to someone else according to your fair use rights.

Right?


I believe so.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:38 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
My hunch is that they won't be able to do this. Unless they can prove that you've kept a copy, you're passing on the license to someone else according to your fair use rights.

Right?



Yes, basically, except it's not a fair use issue. The implied license goes with ownership of the "phonorecord." Thus, if you own the original, you can make copies for your own use, but once you transfer ownership of the original, use of the copies is an infringement.

And don't be so sure they can't do something like this. The record labels lobbied enough in the early 80s to get legislation banning the leasing/renting of phonorecords. The movie industry considered doing the same thing until they saw how much money they could make off selling copies to rental stores.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:42 pm 
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I'm prettty certain I read somewhere that 'someone' was trying to make the sale of second hand books illegal!

I don't buy many used CD's but I buy a hell of a lot of second hand books.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:54 pm 
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Stone Wrote:
HaqDiesel Wrote:
My hunch is that they won't be able to do this. Unless they can prove that you've kept a copy, you're passing on the license to someone else according to your fair use rights.

Right?



Yes, basically, except it's not a fair use issue. The implied license goes with ownership of the "phonorecord." Thus, if you own the original, you can make copies for your own use, but once you transfer ownership of the original, use of the copies is an infringement.

And don't be so sure they can't do something like this. The record labels lobbied enough in the early 80s to get legislation banning the leasing/renting of phonorecords. The movie industry considered doing the same thing until they saw how much money they could make off selling copies to rental stores.


So it is illegal to rent CD's. I guess that public libraries are exempt from this?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:06 pm 
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Didn't Garth Brooks try this crap 15 years ago. I seem to recall that Garth Brooks albums would not be available for sale through stores that sold used CD's.

What a friend we have in eBay and Amazon. I have to imagine that ratio of used to new sales on Amazon/Amazon Marketplace is heavily skewed towards the used.

You want to solve the used CD issue? Stop issuing crap that people want to unload after a few listens. If the albums were better, folks would hold on to 'em.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:22 pm 
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and if albums weren't 18.99 i would buy them more often.

i probably buy a full priced CD at most once a year, during the holidays as a gift for someeone else.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:34 pm 
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Pagoda Wrote:
Stone Wrote:
HaqDiesel Wrote:
My hunch is that they won't be able to do this. Unless they can prove that you've kept a copy, you're passing on the license to someone else according to your fair use rights.

Right?



Yes, basically, except it's not a fair use issue. The implied license goes with ownership of the "phonorecord." Thus, if you own the original, you can make copies for your own use, but once you transfer ownership of the original, use of the copies is an infringement.

And don't be so sure they can't do something like this. The record labels lobbied enough in the early 80s to get legislation banning the leasing/renting of phonorecords. The movie industry considered doing the same thing until they saw how much money they could make off selling copies to rental stores.


So it is illegal to rent CD's. I guess that public libraries are exempt from this?


Nonprofit libraries and nonprofit educational institutions are exempt.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:35 pm 
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Off the Record, woot!

This would suck for me personally. Most of my cds have an amoeba price tag on them.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:47 pm 
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jewels santana Wrote:
and if albums weren't 18.99 i would buy them more often.

i probably buy a full priced CD at most once a year, during the holidays as a gift for someeone else.


Where do you shop?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:00 pm 
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You can see the boom in less-than-mint-condition merchandise in at least 40 record stores in San Diego County, including 17 Wherehouse Music outlets and 13 Music Trader shops. That's more than double the number of used-CD stores in the area in 1992


How many used CD's were there in '92? I can count on 1 hand how many CD's I had total in '92, but now I have around 700- music must be getting better! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:17 pm 
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Damen Wrote:
Quote:
You can see the boom in less-than-mint-condition merchandise in at least 40 record stores in San Diego County, including 17 Wherehouse Music outlets and 13 Music Trader shops. That's more than double the number of used-CD stores in the area in 1992


How many used CD's were there in '92? I can count on 1 hand how many CD's I had total in '92, but now I have around 700- music must be getting better! :lol:


There were lots. Independent shops have been trafficking used cd's since the late '80's. Our margins on used CD's were much better than on new stock. We'd buy a lot of cd's for an average of $2 - $4 (e.g. giving someone $50 - $80 for a lot of 20, depending on the quality of the titles). These, we'd sell for $8 or $9. These were for legitimate "used" cd's. Add in the promos that cost us nothing, and you can see why stores are heavy into this game.

Compare that to new stuff, which we'd get for $9 or $10 and sell for $12 to $14.

We had to shell out three times the cash (or credit) in order to make the same unit profit.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:50 pm 
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Billzebub Wrote:
Damen Wrote:
Quote:
You can see the boom in less-than-mint-condition merchandise in at least 40 record stores in San Diego County, including 17 Wherehouse Music outlets and 13 Music Trader shops. That's more than double the number of used-CD stores in the area in 1992


How many used CD's were there in '92? I can count on 1 hand how many CD's I had total in '92, but now I have around 700- music must be getting better! :lol:


There were lots. Independent shops have been trafficking used cd's since the late '80's. Our margins on used CD's were much better than on new stock. We'd buy a lot of cd's for an average of $2 - $4 (e.g. giving someone $50 - $80 for a lot of 20, depending on the quality of the titles). These, we'd sell for $8 or $9. These were for legitimate "used" cd's. Add in the promos that cost us nothing, and you can see why stores are heavy into this game.

Compare that to new stuff, which we'd get for $9 or $10 and sell for $12 to $14.

We had to shell out three times the cash (or credit) in order to make the same unit profit.


About three years ago the biggest independent record chain in Glasgow closed 2 of it's 3 shops and stopped selling new CD's altogether in the one remaining shop. Now they only sell second CD's and DVD's. I knew one of the clerks and he said the couldn't afford to sell new CD's anymore because they just didn't make enough money from them. The profit margin on a 2nd CD is twice that of a new CD.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:49 pm 
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Pagoda Wrote:
jewels santana Wrote:
and if albums weren't 18.99 i would buy them more often.

i probably buy a full priced CD at most once a year, during the holidays as a gift for someeone else.


Where do you shop?


well when i actually buy new CD's it's at the indie store where CD's are 12.99-14.99. But if you go to the mall or Tower or whatever, where most of america goes, they are 18.99 unless they are on sale.


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