Can we say FUCK GM & FORD?



I never would've thought this bailout would be taken advantage of. SHOCKER!!

So, this GM, Ford bailout thing is starting to annoy me. Are there any actual citizens that think this is a good idea?

It seems everyone I talk to thinks they should just go bankrupt and start over. Bankruptcy exists for a reason.

I suppose if the republicans were smart, they'd stall and let this bailout happen after the transition so they can use it as a banner issue for getting some seats back.

I am no economist, and know very little about business operations, let alone for a major corporation, but my God, this just seems really, really dumb.

The gov't is now talking about buying a part of the companies. To partially nationalize these automakers. Does this mean I'll have to be told what car I have to buy?

kinda all over the road there Joe.

haha. I was processing internally before thoughts were fully completed. That's what you get from me when that happens.

I have to go do some shit, but a few things to help guide you through these troubling times:


1. Car companies are not all alike. Ford has cash, and some marginally progressive ideas (bringing small / efficient european models to the US and producing them here). I suspect they will make it through this, though others may not. Be wary of lumping all 3 into a Them.

2. Bankruptcy would probably be good for GM and Chrysler in the immediate term, but there is some credibility to the reports that show 80% of people wouldn't buy a car from a company in bankruptcy. Remember how big a deal it is to have parts and dealer support years after the purchase. Also people are dumb, and short-sighted. So even if it was a smart idea to declare, GM /Chrysler'd still suck it when sales flatlined no matter what they put out. As the french say, damned if you do is worth two in the bush.

3. Giving loans to GM and Chrysler in particular, without seeing plans for what the fuck they'd do differently (besides renegotiate labor and dealer networks... I mean Product changes, or maybe the radical notion of admitting that global warming even exists in the case of GM's Bob Lutz) would indeed be pretty dumb. Don't need to be an economist to recognize putting a band-aid on cancer when you see it. So far Ford has had at least something to say, whereas GM and Chrysler haven't, that I've heard. Not anything meaningful, anyway, just "well you're gonna lose all them thar jobs and the economy will go into the shitter... so, you know..." (holds hand out). People still ain't gonna want many suburbans 5 years from now. And the Chevy Volt with its 40 mile electric range and close to $40k pricetag is NOT going to save GM. Sorry.




State-by-state franchise laws (7,000 US dealers vs toyota's 1,200 or so, and GM can't do diddlyshit to lower that figure except hope they all fold on their own) and labor contracts are a huuuge part of the issue, but it all still manages to float when people buy a lot of your cars. That should be in their crosshairs, but so far they don't seem to be able to articulate where they failed.

While Ford may have a different outlook and potential for their future, they're still asking for gov't money so in that respect they're still part of "Them".

I think that bankruptcy would force the other two to actually consider revising their business model and potentially create a situation where their sales would not suck because they don't just immediately go back to pumping out Lebarons and Tahoes. Offer something new, consistent with what the market (consumers) want and bankruptcy could "potentially" lead them toward becoming a competitive corporation again. Maybe.

I agree with your third point here. But, I still would not be in favor of gov't purchasing part of these companies or even handing them billions of dollars just because they admit that preserving the environment is important. Still, I think I'd be even less inclined to hand them money just because they promise (and possibly even intend) to make product changes. I don't attempt to sell Tupperware containers of human feces, see no sales, and then beg for a bailout because I am not making money, yet promise to try and sell something people actually want. That sort of realization and business change should take place without any government involvement from small businesses to large ones, IMO.

I know minimal amounts of data regarding the union/labor contracts of this process beyond that it plays a significant role in the process.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ford isn't asking the gov't for money. They're asking for a guaranteed line of credit to cover the next couple years of predicted losses. Loans do not equal free money.

coupla points and then I'm out for the day -

1. Careful of the hyperbole... Tahoes and the like aren't turds in tupperware, by and large. americans have been happily buying them and the like for a loooong time. They're decently-made, they're roomy for bigfatfucks, they hold lotsa shit, whatever. I only say that because giving into black and whitisms can lead you to bad conclusions. Japanese are better in quality and design, but there's a lot more at work here.

2. The labor contracts were set up when it was raining $. GM had 50% marketshare until not all that long ago. Imagine if an NBA team signed the biggest names possible to gazillion dollar contracts, but the contracts were for ten or twenty years, and they couldn't get out even if the guys hurt themselves, the teams lost money, etc.

3. Why aren't you railing against the top mgmt-level compensation gap btwn US and JAP companies? That's the nugget I can't get over. Toyo CEO makes something like a few mill a year, vs GM and Ford guys taking in teens and 20 mills, while burning through $2B a month(!). Get it together Joe!

Sometimes I struggle not using hyperbole to make my point more concise. Part of the problem of being the type of person I am is that I have to talk things out in order to come to a conclusion on something--I'm not a very internal thinker. Given my experience with this 'round here, it appears to annoy the shit of some people. haha

I do understand that my analogy of Tahoes to tupperware of turd is a little less than perfect. Again, was just trying to make the point that just because a company got over-zealous in its spending or even in it's idea of what people would want and are now facing the consequences of mediocre to poor business practices doesn't seem like a justification for bailing them out--regardless of their intent to change their product, etc. I think you agree on that anyway.

I know I am simplifying the issue (partly because of the venue for commenting and also partly because of my basic level of knowledge on the issue), but the developing trend of government bailing out companies with money (whatever minor percentage of which is "mine") is of major concern to me. I just think it's the wrong direction to go in, no matter which side of the political spectrum you're on.

interesting story i read on japanese executive compensation the other day

Japanese Wrestle With CEO Pay as They Go Global

I dunno - given the choice would you drive a Tahoe or a Camry? If I could afford the Tahoe, I'd damn sure drive it.

This has as much to do with the credit crunch stopping people from buying shit as bad cars. Remember, gas is down over $2 a gallon and people still aren't buying...ANYTHING. Hyundai is off 40% in Alabama - where a lot of people buy Hyundais because we make them here and people have some hometown pride.

People aren't buying a gotdamn thing - and the sad thing is that the credit crisis is glossing over the fact that the reason motherfuckers are in debt is because actual wages haven't risen since Reagan was the president - we need credit because the dollar is artificially inflated in terms of what the fuck it will buy you.

Also - this whole thing is the biggest fucking scam in the history of the world, and i just can't figure out who is benefiting, or I'd be like some crazed monster-sized Chomsky out there.

Lemme get this straight - people leveraged and sold derivatives until they equalled more than 800 times the actual money available in the entire goddamn world and now they are shocked that the house of cards has collapsed and want the government to back all of this shit so they don't go broke? Fuck 'em in the ear.

Sadly, while I type that, I understand that the government has to do all that, and probably will have to auction off the original Declaration of Independence, The Liberty Bell and let the New York Yankees be renamed the Shanghai Shiteaters just to make sure we're not all wearing tattered rags or pushing a shopping buggy down the road and muttering to ourselves by this time next week.

As in: meet the new boss, same as the old boss - and in 3-4 years we'll think of this like the savings and loan "scandal" - some dumb white boys got all hot about "the gubmint" gettin in the way of "industry and capitalism" convinced their cronies friends to deregulate a bunch of shit, made and lost more money than your average American makes in his entire life time, had the feds bail em out, all the while wearing ostrich boots and eating Belgian Endives and Quiche in a can, whistling past the graveyard....except there is no graveyard except for all of us assholes who think that shit ever changes, or in reality, is ever different.

There's been nothing new under the sun since Solomon, and this is just another grand shuck.

what got into you?

Obviously he's got a case of Freedom.

You know, just uh, tellin it like it is man. Speakin truth to power and shit

Ford's only got cash because they unloaded Jaguar and Land Rover last year. GM could raise the same kind of cash by spinning off subs.

We have bankruptcy laws to address just such an emergency as this...restructuring under court protection from creditors.

Ford didn't show any real insight in bringing small euro-type cars to the US. They did it to reach the fleet MPG requirements to which they are beholden while not jettisoning the Mustang (unlike GM, who let the Firebird and Camaro go).

Liquidate Chrysler, let GM, Ford, or some Honda/Nissan/Toyota backed private equity group take Jeep and Dodge and Mopar trademark and send the rest packing.

Much like the airlines, there's too much auto production capacity in this country.

A cash infusion at this point is only going to subsidize fire-sale discounts, at the expense of Honda et al.

Holy fuck I want this on my tombstone.

Yeah, fuck the Shmoo poll, THAT's the sort of post/rant that is the best thing about obner.

I'm just pleased to see Gar use the word "buggy" instead of "cart."

too. good. must. repost.

i don't follow entirely. Does this mean I pulled a Neuro or does this mean you saw this article, wanted to post it, saw that this thread was bumped and are resisting the urge to re-post the same information?

Hell yeah Larry Flynt!

This guy, William Black, on Moyers had a good take. Something akin to Gar's "fuck'em in the ear."


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/profile.html