Because an entire segment of the country is being told it's a moral threat that needs legislating against? I'd think that'd be enough impetus, not even taking into account all the legal benefits marriage brings that civil unions don't.

The "why do you need to" thing is something most often asked by the nicer end of the "don't like the gays much" but it's not a compelling argument anymore than 19th century men saying "why do women need to vote" was a compelling argument.

Well stated Spoon.

Micky, it's an interesting and valuable question. I "came of age" in a time and place where social conventions like marriage for anyone was highly suspicious. So many thought and behaved in these ways blurred the lines and challenged convention that I almost wound up in a life partnership with a woman...

But now, later in life, beyond the foundational issues of rights and fairness that Spoon cites, there are real issues of placing one's life in network of cultural norms, supports, and resources. As you cross into your 50's and look at the end of your life you think, who can accompany me? I sometimes see myself in a walker with my life-partner helping me to the table... as Dylan says, "it ain't dark yet, but it's getting there..." And the whole construct of "marriage" helps one adjust, plan, even look forward to these transitions. And "domestic partnership" (which is sorta like a car registration, or filling papers to start a business) just doesn't have the same power and capacity to help. I have been astonished that the reaction of friends and family to our marriage has had such an impact. All of these little cultural cues get stored in the tissue of everyday life... a warmth for the darkness to come.

Harry, what's your opinion on the fact that two of the groups that are holding back gay marriage in California (church going blacks and Hispanics) are also legs of the Dem coalition?

Ain't coalitions peachy?

The stats on this have been overstated... it is certainly generational (younger voters of color voted against Prop 8), and the "media outreach" to those communities were non-existent. That coupled with the evangelical religious impact in the black community and catholic impact in the Latino community....

I think the "gays are white" and should shut up about the "discrimination against people of color" trope is poisonous. I mean I know more Latino and black gay and lesbian people than white... (partially where and how I have lived). So we need to let the communities of color figure this out without "white gay men making a case to black and brown people." Not only is that ineffective, it is a lie. One of my best friends is a large and beautiful black Lesbian who wants to get married.

Prop 8 Myths, Busted, Courtesy Nate Silver

Also: to Mick the Stripper -- the point is you have the choice not to marry... Harry, et. al., are precluded from that. They have to remain unmarried, even if they don't want to (& you know Harry's proper Episcopalian ass wants that partnership done right, by G-d).

Shit, motherfucker. Beat me to it.

[img][650:433]http://k43.pbase.com/o6/97/295097/1/70695295.FMp7kwaf.mImg_7295.jpg[/img]

i have been shocked in the last 2 days to hear two youngish, educated women tell me that they are pro-prop 8. it's like someone injecting acid into my eyes. i guess i find it hard to believe that so many are caught up in the "protect marriage" nonsense.

in the event that prop 8 does not go down in 2010, i would love to see CA get out of the marriage business altogether, and make civil unions ONLY for everyone.

the first gay divorce is gonna be a huge deal.

Monty consolation prize:
[img][382:500]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_T1GqbJwP1MQ/Sh6-xIYqR2I/AAAAAAAAGj4/Sfzr_SZE7aQ/s1600/mandy.jpg[/img]