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 Post subject: was the pope really all that great?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:59 pm 
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with all the loving tributes in the news for the pope these days, it might be good to hear a different opinion.

source

If you've been watching TV, you've seen Karol Wojtyla credited with the fall of the Soviet Empire (a claim so vastly overstated it borders on the laughable) and represented as a champion of human rights, human life and human dignity.

These are exaggerations, selectively culled to provide a positive picture where either a morally neutral or morally contemptible view is far more accurate.

Karol Wojtyla was not a terribly good Pope. He wasn't a terribly BAD pope, but certainly nothing special.
He was, however, a very popular pope. The two things are not synonymous.

John Paul II traveled around the world and personally delivered hundreds of sermons to millions of people. This was truly something different, and something interesting. No pope had ever done this kind of thing. Interesting, but not terribly important, nor surprising.

No one ever accused Karol Wojtyla of being stupid. In the modern age, Catholicism needed selling and bolstering, and this is exactly what Pope John Paul II did. Good for him, and if you're a Catholic, I am sure it's nice to see an aggressive spreading of your message by the head of your church. But this is hardly a morally courageous act. In other words, yes, he traveled a lot and spoke a lot, but so does Madonna.

In comparison with other Popes of the 20th century, Pope John Paul II pales in comparison to Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI, who oversaw the second Vatican Council. This is an accomplishment which dwarfs anything John Paul II ever did.

John Paul II and the fall of Communism in Europe
It's quite true that as Archbishop of Krakow and later as Cardinal, Wojtyla provided moral aid and comfort to the people fighting the oppression of the Polish communist regime. Later, as Pope, he loudly denounced Marxist political and anti-religious ideology.

While he may have had a role in bolstering the courage of the Polish people, he was hardly a Lech Walesa. Nor was he among the thousands of Catholic priests who risked imprisonment or death by the Communists in eastern Europe who really did personally fight to oppose their respective governments out of a sense of social justice and human dignity. Among these are Pavel Peter Gojdic, Bishop of Presov whose story is truly inspirational.

Yes, Pope John Paul II spoke out strongly condemning the excesses of communism and the anti-religiousness of Marxism, but how is this particularly laudable? It does not say great things about John Paul II that he did this, it says enormously bad things about the Church fathers before John Paul II that they took an accommodationist approach to Joseph Stalin and his successors.

How important was John Paul II in the downfall of communism? Not very.

Poland was not the Soviet Union. John Paul was a thorn in the side of the Polish communist government, but not to anyone else, certainly not the Orthodox, not Catholic Russians, who consider the Pope only slightly less heretical than the Anti-Christ. And certainly not to Leonid Brezhnev or his successors, who were worried about the things actually hurting the Soviet empire like...

1. Communism is a very inefficient system.
Let's face it folks, it doesn't begin to compare with a modern capitalist state in any way. Politically, socially, scientifically and economically, communism has been a big fat failure everywhere, most spectacularly in Eastern Europe. That's not a result of John Paul II, it's an inherent flaw of the system. This wasn't so bad when the Russkies could do things like jam western broadcasts, which pointed out just how bad the system was in comparison to the west but it became a real issue when...

2. Ted Turner
and the other global communication moguls set up satellite TV on a worldwide basis. These folks exposed the wholesale lying which the communist governments were engaged in. For the first time, average citizens could switch on a TV and see for themselves just how incredibly deprived they were in every way, compared with their western European counterparts. The Russian and other eastern European people started demanding consumer goods.
As anyone who's played CIV III knows, a certain amount of luxuries is required to keep your citizenry in line. Luxuries the Soviet command economy simply couldn't produce because...

3. Ronald Wilson Reagan
and the other hawks of the 1980s bet the farm that the U.S. could out-arm the Soviets and still produce whatever consumers wanted. Though many people, myself included, opposed this risky enterprise, it succeeded. The U.S. spent the Soviets into the ground.

In the end, items 1,2, and 3 led to the collapse of the system, and whatever was happening in Poland was utterly insignificant to the rest of Eastern Europe's ruling elite. If you want to thank the conquerors of communism, go thank Ronnie Raygun, Lech Walesa, Mikhail Gorbachev, Ted Turner and Karl Marx. Pope John Paul II doesn't even make the also-ran list.

John Paul II, human dignity and freedom
The next myth currently being promulgated by the media is that John Paul II was a champion of human dignity. Well, not really. In fact, John Paul II made no bones about crushing dissent or alternate views within the church.

John Paul II and his buddies, the right-wing Latin American death squads
Probably the greatest personal moral failure of John Paul II was his systematic destruction of one of the great humanist movements within the church's history.

The one place where the Church was, during John Paul II's tenure, seriously addressing great moral needs, was Central and South America.

Here, a new brand of Catholic teaching was taking place, called Liberation Theology.

In response to wholesale murders of innocents, grinding poverty and oppression by a handful of oligarchs, many in the Church in South and Central America embraced Christ's often stated values about caring for the poor and oppressed. (A message central to Christ's actual teachings, as opposed to any word about birth control, homosexuality or the supremacy of men over women).

This new Catholic teaching embraced things like land reform, still today a central issue of basic justice in countries where 99% of the land and wealth both are controlled by far less than 1% of the people. John Paul seemed completely unable to grasp the difference between the peasant's struggle for basic human dignity and the Soviet State, even when his own Archbishops, like Oscar Romero, traveled to Rome to talk about it.

Instead, Pope John Paul II told Romero (who was later assassinated by the very people John Paul urged him to cooperate with) to shut up and stop stirring up the people. When he travelled to Nicaragua in 1986, he told the crowd again to shut up and give up "unacceptable ideological commitments."

He closed seminaries and schools, silenced individuals and replaced a whole slew of Bishops with picked men who wouldn't rock the boat of South American dictatorship and mass murder. It's one of the more shameful episodes of the Papacy in the last 100 years.

John Paul II and the "culture of Life"
Pope John Paul liked to talk about a culture of life. He liked talking about this a lot.

But apparently, "life" as valued by the Pope, is a hard thing to define.

It certainly didn't include the "life" of people under threat of AIDS, nor does it include the "life" of people dying from starvation while the Church's untold billions in assets continue to grow.

In the world today, about 16 million people die every year from hunger. This is primarily due to overpopulation in areas not able to grow sufficient food for the local population.

John Paul II didn't respond to this crisis by relaxing Catholic dogma about birth control, nor did he respond by following Christ's example, selling off the many billions of dollars in real estate and other financial holdings of the church to help the poor.

In Southern Africa in particular, an area where the Catholic church is experiencing growth rates of about 5% per year, AIDS is killing far more people than starvation or war, and is likely to kill many millions more because of the Catholic Church's stance on condom use. The one reliable way to prevent the spread of AIDS (since not even Catholic priests seem to be capable of chastity) is the large-scale use of condoms. The Church, under John Paul II's personal direction, has taken a vocal and zealous position opposing this cheap, life-saving measure.

So much for a culture of life.
Apparently the lives of the hundred people on Death Row in the U.S., Terri Shiavo and of sperm and embryos is the important life to the Catholic Church. -Vastly more important than the many millions of lives being lost annually due to easily preventable causes on which the church has largely remained silent or ineffectual in addressing under the leadership of John Paul II.

In fairness, I never expected the pope to change his mind on birth control until AIDS. The continuing opposition to condoms in the face of this humanitarian catastrophe is simply mind-boggling.

John Paul II and child molesters
And finally, let's not forget what is unquestionably one of the most despicable episodes in Catholic history; an episode so shameful it finally lost me as a fan of the Catholic Church, even when I had been willing to overlook the many failures and disagreements over things like birth control.

I'm talking of course, about the sex scandals.

I don't think pedophilia is confined to the Catholic Church. And in all honesty, I don't think the existence of pedophiles within the priesthood is an indictment of the Church itself. Pedophiles can be anywhere.

It is the Church's response to pedophilia that is so shocking.

"In the case of almost every predator priest, church officials had reports of abusive behavior, but allowed the priests to remain in ministry, documents show. In many cases, accused priests were sent for brief periods of psychological evaluation, then returned to parishes -- where they abused again." -Boston Globe

If you're a kid in a Catholic Church, you may not only be molested, but your molester will not be punished by the Church. In fact, the church will deny that you ever were molested, and if they do find out that you were, they'll quietly transfer the pedophile to another diocese to do it again.

One of the most basic principals of humanity is protecting our children. One of the main precepts of Judaism and Islam is obeying the laws of the land in which they live. But Church officials don't believe this. In fact, they were accessories after the fact to unknown thousands of molestations, following Canon law, rather than the Civil law of the countries where this thing was rampant. That half a dozen bishops and archbishops and cardinals were not indicted as accessories to these crimes speaks to a flaw in democracy.

Pope John Paul II spoke incessantly about the evils of women being ordained, use of condoms and abortion. In fact, Canon law holds that getting an abortion is an issue of automatic excommunication. But priest child molesters were not defrocked, they were not turned in to civil authorities to answer for crimes, they were not excommunicated. In fact they were protected by the church and allowed to continue their reign of terror over Catholic children.

It's not just that this happened under John Paul II's watch, it's the fact that he very personally participated in setting this policy that's amazing to me. Any biography or obituary of John Paul II that does not include this is missing a central personal failure of the man and the Church.

So finally, in remembering John Paul II, let us remember the facts, not the myths. And the facts don't make the man anything special at all, other than being popular. But as I said before, so is Madonna. Who cares?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:50 pm 
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Watch out, man. Someone might think you are showing disrespect. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:52 pm 
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Pope was a great as a traditionalist could be. Next Pope will have to get past that and get a grip on at least the 19th century.


Last edited by no guru on Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:56 pm 
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Good article.



The Pope and the Catholic Church gets no respect from me.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:01 pm 
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I thought the credit he's been given lately for the fall of communism was a bit over the top, but perception tends to get warped when you've been on such a stage for so long.

The church and its role in the diddling is totally irresponsible and disgraceful.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:06 pm 
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While we're at it let's set the record straight on someone else:
Mother Teresa was a fucking bitch!

What? Oh, Christopher Hitchens already took care of that.

Steve


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:16 pm 
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DunwoodyDude Wrote:
While we're at it let's set the record straight on someone else:
Mother Teresa was a fucking bitch!

What? Oh, Christopher Hitchens already took care of that.

Steve


"Like shootin fish in a barrel, mate"

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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 Post subject: Re: was the pope really all that great?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:19 am 
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Northern Soul Wrote:
3. Ronald Wilson Reagan
and the other hawks of the 1980s bet the farm that the U.S. could out-arm the Soviets and still produce whatever consumers wanted. Though many people, myself included, opposed this risky enterprise, it succeeded. The U.S. spent the Soviets into the ground.

Even listing him at #3 gives Reagan too much credit. As if our plan all along was to spend so much on defense that Russia will bankrupt itself trying to keep up. Now that's revisionist history. :roll:

Being godless scum, I'll happily throw in a reminder that many of Catholicism's social stands are dangerously irresponsible, medieval and cruel. That said, this article does go a bit too far into "he didn't save the world, therefore he was crap." Not even the Pope is going to be able to prevent the deaths of 16 million starving people a year.


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 Post subject: Re: was the pope really all that great?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:47 am 
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Reagan was the W. Bush of the 80s. The only difference was that Reagan could read off a teleprompter more eloquently. I mean, his own staff got nervous whenever he confronted the press without high-level advisors by his side. He was about as responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union as Al Gore was for inventing the Internet.

As much as I dislike H. W. Bush and Clinton, they at least appeared to have some sort of intellect in comparison.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:25 am 
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Spoon Zen Wrote:
Pope was a great as a traditionalist could be. Next Pope will have to get past that and get a grip on at least the 19th century.

I think that's the fairest assesment one can make about JPII. Interesting that the article doesn't downplay his role in interfaith relations (in this case, popular is, in fact, good).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:33 am 
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I veiw the pope on the same level as Mr. Rogers or Captain Kangaroo.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:51 am 
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Spoon Zen Wrote:
Pope was a great as a traditionalist could be. Next Pope will have to get past that and get a grip on at least the 19th century.

Yeah, but unfortunately the Church doesn't like change and any Cardinal who could "get past that and get a grip on at least the 19th century" is unlikely to be elected Pope.

Although, I do think the issues of the role of women in the Church and the whole celibacy thing will get addressed

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: was the pope really all that great?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Borg166 Wrote:

As much as I dislike H. W. Bush and Clinton, they at least appeared to have some sort of intellect in comparison.


Borg, I like you man. But, READ some more. Poppy and Bubba were both near genius level. Clinton may have been the smartest man to be president. (Jefferson, I think would approach him) I have heard stories of Clinton doing a crosswrod in Cabinet meetings and then recalling word for word what each person said.

Dubya, on the other hand is Charlotte Simmons ;)

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:16 pm 
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i love Bill Clinton.

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 Post subject: Re: was the pope really all that great?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:18 pm 
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Senator Reverend LooGAR Wrote:
Borg166 Wrote:

As much as I dislike H. W. Bush and Clinton, they at least appeared to have some sort of intellect in comparison.


Borg, I like you man. But, READ some more. Poppy and Bubba were both near genius level. Clinton may have been the smartest man to be president. (Jefferson, I think would approach him) I have heard stories of Clinton doing a crosswrod in Cabinet meetings and then recalling word for word what each person said.

Loogar, I'm with you on your assessment of Clinton as President, but he is a perfect example of an extremely intelligent man who lacks common sense. I know you have run into these people in your lifetime.

His diddling Lewinsky IS a non issue, but it's occurence in the freakin' White House and then denying it in a press conference shows him to be a bit out of touch with reality.

I also believe him to be a genius, but I also truly think the guy has some mental problems and that's not hyperbole.

Steve


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:34 pm 
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You know anything about him, like his child life? There's some serious psychological shit going down with Bill. there is a reaosn they call homie the first Black President. He is low class made good (don't construe that as a comment about Blacks being low class, please) And I seriously believe that one of the main reasons 'they' had it for him so bad is that he was the first president in a while that wasn't of the manor born. It's weird, but many of our most embattled presidents (Clinton, Nixon) had to claw there way from nothing, and I think that colors the way the powers that be react to them, and the way they react to the powers that be.

Oh, and the Pope not taking on all of the fucking child mongerers is an unpardonable offense, and he should rot in hell over it. Great, he fought Nazis, and then let a million kids get their dicks fondled and asses invaded by people that they were supposed to trust. He should have convened a tribunal at the Vatican, invited them for "an audience with the Pope" and, in the words of Honey Bunny, "executed every last motherfucking on of [em]"

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:37 pm 
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yeah, if all the facts are true and he really knew about it and did nothing. . . he left the Catholics of the United States out to dry.

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 Post subject: Re: was the pope really all that great?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:41 pm 
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Senator Gator LooGAR Wrote:
Borg166 Wrote:

As much as I dislike H. W. Bush and Clinton, they at least appeared to have some sort of intellect in comparison.


Borg, I like you man. But, READ some more. Poppy and Bubba were both near genius level. Clinton may have been the smartest man to be president. (Jefferson, I think would approach him) I have heard stories of Clinton doing a crosswrod in Cabinet meetings and then recalling word for word what each person said.

Dubya, on the other hand is Charlotte Simmons ;)


Whoa. You think Jefferson would approach Clinton's genius?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:51 pm 
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Senator Gator LooGAR Wrote:
Oh, and the Pope not taking on all of the fucking child mongerers is an unpardonable offense, and he should rot in hell over it. Great, he fought Nazis, and then let a million kids get their dicks fondled and asses invaded by people that they were supposed to trust. He should have convened a tribunal at the Vatican, invited them for "an audience with the Pope" and, in the words of Honey Bunny, "executed every last motherfucking on of [em]"

Totally agree with you on this. I would like to believe that if this shit had gone down when he was younger he would have taken a much stronger stance on this because to say that that is fucked up is an understatement. I really don't think he completely knew what the fuck was going on much of the time in the last 10 years.

Steve


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:59 pm 
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Quick question: When the Pope takes a poop, is he pontifficating?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:59 pm 
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The Pope was a great man. I will not argue this.


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