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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:58 pm 
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There are some great band names in this thread:

Stoning Harlots
Rooted in the Bible
Hardcore Protestants

and the best one


High Five Dana

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What about...

High Five Dana and the Hardcore Protestants

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The biblical "fear of God" doesn't mean being afraid of him any more than the biblical meaning of "awesome" is a surfer phrase.

To Fear God used to mean to continually understand that he's Yahweh, Alpha & Omega, i.e. Creator and Lord. Not just your Buddy Jesus.

Fearing God is supposed to be all about understanding that he ain't some girlfriend you can cheat on and lie to. That he expects respect and obedience and an acknowledgement of his majesty.

Respect, reverance and understanding of power. That kind of thing.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:26 pm 
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I think when evangelicals use the term "god fearing" they mean it, but probably not in the way that is generally interpreted by those outside their faith. It doesn't mean that they live in a constant state of fearing god's wrath or seeing god as unapproachable or whatever. It just puts an emphasis on the whole unconditional faith thing, believing that god is infallible, all-knowing, all-powerful, etc. and can't be second-guessed or even really fully comprehended.

I was raised as a Baptist, and I've never really seen the term "god fearing" in quite the negative light that a lot of you seem to. It's overly showy and probably unnecessary (like referring to oneself as a "born-again Christian" rather than just a Christian), and it can certainly be used to support and enforce a lot of narrow-minded and borderline fascist thinking. Still, just because someone proclaims themselves to be "god fearing" doesn't mean they have some distant, fearful relationship with the god they believe in. It does make them an easy target for ridicule, though.

Edit: and frostingspoon said all of that a little better ^


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:34 pm 
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Camper Phil Spoonhoven Wrote:
The biblical "fear of God" doesn't mean being afraid of him any more than the biblical meaning of "awesome" is a surfer phrase.

To Fear God used to mean to continually understand that he's Yahweh, Alpha & Omega, i.e. Creator and Lord. Not just your Buddy Jesus.

Fearing God is supposed to be all about understanding that he ain't some girlfriend you can cheat on and lie to. That he expects respect and obedience and an acknowledgement of his majesty.

Respect, reverance and understanding of power. That kind of thing.


huh. I was getting my typing fingers ready to respond and then I read Phil's post and he..stole..my..thunder..

no I'm kidding of course. But Phil's the hammer on the nail. There are a variety of English words and phrases in myriad modern translations that have heavy loss from original meaning. But a lot of people go with what they see in the words and make easy applications that are really not that straightforward.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:43 pm 
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aerodynamics Wrote:
Camper Phil Spoonhoven Wrote:
The biblical "fear of God" doesn't mean being afraid of him any more than the biblical meaning of "awesome" is a surfer phrase.

To Fear God used to mean to continually understand that he's Yahweh, Alpha & Omega, i.e. Creator and Lord. Not just your Buddy Jesus.

Fearing God is supposed to be all about understanding that he ain't some girlfriend you can cheat on and lie to. That he expects respect and obedience and an acknowledgement of his majesty.

Respect, reverance and understanding of power. That kind of thing.


huh. I was getting my typing fingers ready to respond and then I read Phil's post and he..stole..my..thunder..

no I'm kidding of course. But Phil's the hammer on the nail. There are a variety of English words and phrases in myriad modern translations that have heavy loss from original meaning. But a lot of people go with what they see in the words and make easy applications that are really not that straightforward.


All true, I agree with all of the above. But while there are certainly Christians whose 'fear' of god is one of reverence, one must agree that there are probably a fair number of Christians whose fear of god is in the strictest interpretation of the word. Their obedience is based on negative reinforcement, where they behave accordingly because they wish to avoid the repercusions of rule of violation. While fearful might often point to respect and reverence, it's just as often paired with fire and brimstone.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:51 pm 
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Yeah, plus there's the fundamentalist teachings that it's your fault if people go to hell if you've haven't witnessed to them, that you'll have to account for everything you've ever done at The Judgement (and what, get Eternity Demerits?), that demons can possess you if you don't live purely, and that God rewards holiness but punishes indolence.

Makes for a lot of paranoid and stressed-out "good" people, which is kind of the opposite of how Jesus taught his disciples to be.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:59 am 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Cotton Wrote:
Elvis Fu is a lesbian?
I got a tongue like a cat and can breathe out my ears.
A cat's tongue is dry and rough (not that there's anything wrong with that, some chicks might dig it), and breathing out your ears is over-rated when their thighs are wrapped around them. If you get the angle right, you can breathe through your nose.

Now, a blowhole on the top of the head, now that would be useful...

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Dusty Chalk Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
Cotton Wrote:
Elvis Fu is a lesbian?
I got a tongue like a cat and can breathe out my ears.
A cat's tongue is dry and rough (not that there's anything wrong with that, some chicks might dig it), and breathing out your ears is over-rated when their thighs are wrapped around them. If you get the angle right, you can breathe through your nose.

Now, a blowhole on the top of the head, now that would be useful...


Yeah, I got something for your "blowhole" right here, pal.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:03 pm 
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I'm glad I am reading this post on Saturday afternoon -- it inspires me to get to mass tomorrow morning. . .


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:27 am 
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I've lived my whole life in the bible belt, and the concept of fearing God is very familiar to me. That is probably a big part of the reason I am not a Christian, and I hope to never step inside a church again (except for the mandatory weddings and funerals). My parents didn't make us go to church unless we wanted to so all my Baptist friends decided they need to save me from going to Hell. I was basically told I would go to Hell and I was a bad, mislead person if I did not join the Church. Very scary stuff.[/u]


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:51 am 
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Snookywookila Wrote:
I would go to Hell and I was a bad, mislead person if I did not join the Church. Very scary stuff.


Snookawook Killa get right with the Jesus, boy-ee.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:06 am 
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"God fearing" is definately from the Protestant/Calvinist/Presbyterian fire and brimstone school of Christianity.

We probably imported it over there. Sorry. Fucking Scotch-Irish.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:08 am 
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konstantinl. Wrote:
Fucking Scotch-Irish.


That's what populated most of New England, actually.
I know it's how my kids came about.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:08 am 
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Spoon At Wetbar Wrote:
The biblical "fear of God" doesn't mean being afraid of him any more than the biblical meaning of "awesome" is a surfer phrase.

To Fear God used to mean to continually understand that he's Yahweh, Alpha & Omega, i.e. Creator and Lord. Not just your Buddy Jesus.

Fearing God is supposed to be all about understanding that he ain't some girlfriend you can cheat on and lie to. That he expects respect and obedience and an acknowledgement of his majesty.

Respect, reverance and understanding of power. That kind of thing.

...and I checked my translation of preference (George Lamsa's translation from the Peshitta, an Aramaic text), and in every passage that andyfest and scottycash quoted "fear" has been replaced with some conjugation of "revere."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:43 am 
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Sketch Wrote:
...and I checked my translation of preference (George Lamsa's translation from the Peshitta, an Aramaic text), and in every passage that andyfest and scottycash quoted "fear" has been replaced with some conjugation of "revere."


Sounds about right. It's probably a more accurate translation and makes the phrase more easily understood the way it's intended. Drinky Cow and Spoon at Wetbar did a much better job exlaining this phrase than I did. I tried to figure out a way to explain it effectively on Friday afternoon but couldn't come up with anything that made much sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:00 am 
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In Hebrew, yirah, yare and pachad mean reverent fear, terror, or dread, normally translated simply fear. There are other words in Hebrew for mere respect, reverence, or honor, such as kabad. In Greek fear/terror is phobo, where reverence or honor is timao.

With this distinction in both Hebrew and Greek, some still assert that fear merely means reverence. As if God could not select the right word hundreds of times!

These quotes from the good book may have something to do with why some folk actually fear the almighty:

Ps 111:10 (NEB) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding...

Prov 9:10 (NEB) The first step to wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Prov 8:13 (NIV) To fear the Lord is to hate evil.

Prov 16:6 (NEB) ...the fear of the Lord makes men turn from evil.

Job 28:28 (NEB) ..."The fear of the Lord is wisdom, and to turn from evil is understanding."

Ps 25:12-14 (NEB) If there is any man who fears the Lord, he shall be shown the path that he should choose; he shall enjoy lasting prosperity, and his children after him shall inherit the land. The Lord confides his purposes to those who fear him, and his covenant is theirs to know.

Prov 14:26-27 (NIV) He who fears the Lord has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge. The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.

Ps 34:9 (NEB) Fear the Lord, all you his holy people; for those who fear him lack nothing.

Prov 19:23 (NEB) The fear of the Lord is life; he who is full of it will rest untouched by evil.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:08 am 
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albion, you're right, but "reverent fear" was not considered the same thing as "being frightened of."

Reverent fear is all about understanding that God was to be obeyed and not mocked because he is Lord Of All Things.

It wasn't about living your life terrified of God, but more about awareness of his wrath if God was not obeyed, that the Maker of The Universe was (literally) Awesome.

It's a specific distinction, but one that modern fundamentalist churches often get wrong. Fundamentalists often portray God as someone like a righteous Saruman, which is not the biblical teaching.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:14 am 
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Spoon At Wetbar Wrote:
Fundamentalists often portray God as someone like a righteous Saruman, which is not the biblical teaching.

...but is an effective portrayal for getting people's attention / obediance. This is a common theme in distortions of biblical meanings. "Sure, it misses the point completely, but it helps a ton with recruiting, and isn't that what's more important?" No.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:23 am 
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Elvis Fu - You were way off on the Martin Luther Calvinist bent back on page one. Martin Luther and John Calvin - the Father of Calvinism disagreed enough to decclare each other false prophets and heritics.

Here is a brief synposis of John Calvin ...

John Calvin (1509-64)
Born to an upper middle class family in France, John Calvin (the Latinized form of his birth name, Jean Cauvin) emerged as one of the most important figures of the Reformation. Having studied for the priesthood at Paris in his youth, Calvin turned his attentions to civil and canon law in Orleans when his father became disaffected with the clergy.

Calvin showed an early predilection for theology and for the study of Greek and Hebrew. Exposed to the ideas of Luther while he was still in Paris, Calvin's writing indicate that he had definitely moved into the Protestant camp by 1533. On November 1 of that year, he delivered a speech in which he attacked the established church and called for reforms.

Calvin's ideas, rather than bringing about the reforms he sought, elicited a wave of anti-Protestant sentiment that forced him to flee for his own safety. During the next few years, he sought refuge in various cities, most notably Basel, Switzerland. It was also during this period that he began work on his Institution de la Religion Chrétienne, the voluminous work that would consume a good deal of his energy for the next three decades.

During Calvin's flight, he happened to pass a night in Geneva with a man named Farel. Farel attempted to persuade Calvin to remain in Geneva working in support of the Protestant cause there. Reluctantly, Calvin agreed. In 1541, pro-Protestant forces gained control of the city. For the remainder of his life, Calvin stood as the dominant figure in a Geneva that became a point of refuge for persecuted Protestants from all over Europe.

Despite Calvin's work in Geneva, his chief claim to an enduring legacy is found in his theology, which has been greatly influential in many Protestant denominations. The primary tenets of Calvinism include a belief in the primacy of the scripture as an authority for doctrinal decisions, a belief in predestination, a belief in salvation wholly accomplished by grace with no influence from works, and a rejection of the episcopacy.


and another...

Perhaps even more so than Martin Luther, Calvin created the patterns and thought that would dominate Western culture throughout the modern period. American culture, in particular, is thoroughly Calvinist in some form or another; at the heart of the way Americans think and act, you'll find this fierce and imposing reformer.

Calvin was originally a lawyer, but like Zwingli, he was saturated with the ideas of Northern Renaissance humanism. He was dedicated to reform of the church and he got his chance to build a reformed church when the citizens of Geneva revolted against their rulers in the 1520's.

Geneva had been under the rule of the House of Savoy, but the Genevans successfully overthrew the Savoys and the local bishop-prince of Geneva in the waning years of the 1520's. The Genevans, however, unlike the citizens of Zurich, Bern, Basel, and other cities that became Protestant in the 1520's, were not German-speakers but primarily French-speakers. As such, they did not have close cultural ties with the reformed churches in Germany and Switzerland. The Protestant canton of Bern, however, was determined to see Protestantism spread throughout Switzerland. In 1533, Bern sent Protestant reformers to convert Geneva into a Protestant city; after considerable conflict, Geneva officially became Protestant in 1535.

Calvin, by now a successful lawyer, was invited to Geneva to build the new Reformed church. Calvin's efforts radically changed the face of Protestantism, for he directly addressed issues that early Reformers didn't know how or didn't want to answer.

His most important work involved the organization of church governance and the social organization of the church and the city. He was, in fact, the first major political thinker to model social organization entirely on biblical principles. At first his reforms did not go over well. He addressed the issue of church governance by creating leaders within the new church; he himself developed a catechism designed to impose doctrine on all the members of the church. He and Guillaume Farel (1489-1565) imposed a strict moral code on the citizens of Geneva; this moral code was derived from a literal reading of Christian scriptures. Naturally, the people of Geneva believed that they had thrown away one church only to see it replaced by an identical twin; in particular, they saw Calvin's reforms as imposing a new form of papacy on the people, only with different names and different people.

So the Genevans tossed him out. In early 1538, Calvin and the Protestant reformers were exiled from Geneva. Calvin, for his part, moved to Strasbourg where he began writing commentaries on the Bible and finished his massive account of Protestant doctrine, The Institutes of the Christian Church. Calvin's commentaries are almost endless, but within these commentaries he developed all the central principles of Calvinism in his strict readings of the Old and New Testaments. The purpose of commentaries in Western literary tradition was to explain both the literary technique and the difficult passages in literary and historical works. Calvin wrote commentaries to ostensibly explain scriptural writings, but in reality he, like theologians before him, used the commentaries to argue for his own theology as he believed was present in scriptural writings. They are less an explanation of the Bible than a piece by piece construction of his theological, social, and political philosophy.

In 1540 a new crop of city officials in Geneva invited Calvin back to the city. As soon as he arrived he set about revolutionizing Genevan society. His most important innovation was the incorporation of the church into city government; he immediately helped to restructure municipal government so that clergy would be involved in municipal decisions, particularly in disciplining the populace. He imposed a hierarchy on the Genevan church and began a series of statute reforms to impose a strict and uncompromising moral code on the city.

By the mid-1550's, Geneva was thoroughly Calvinist in thought and structure. It became the most important Protestant center of Europe in the sixteenth century, for Protestants driven out of their native countries of France, England, Scotland, and the Netherlands all came to Geneva to take refuge. By the middle of the sixteenth century, between one-third and one-half of the city was made up of these foreign Protestants. In Geneva, these foreign reformers adopted the more radical Calvinist doctrines; most of them had arrived as moderate Reformers and left as thorough-going Calvinists. It is probably for this reason that Calvin's brand of reform eventually became the dominant branch of Protestantism from the seventeenth century onwards.


and perhaps one more on differences between Calvin & Luther - with a little bit of the Scottish that Konstantine offered to apoligize for (thats ok buddy - I grew up a Presbyter as well)

Calvinism originated in John Calvin, a French theologian who moved to Geneva, Switzerland, in 1536, where he published his Institutes of Christian Religion. Calvin's theology was similar to Luther's, yet the two diverge on the main thrust of Calvinism: predestination. Calvin held strongly to the belief that God had already determined who was and who was not going to be saved, that all things are under the direct control of God-man does not have free will per se, since he "fell" into sin. Only God's grace can lead to salvation for man. His belief system caught on, and Geneva soon became a Calvinistic theocracy. Calvinism was soon carried to other countries: John Knox, from Scotland, lived in Geneva for awhile in the 1550s and carried Calvinism back to Scotland; by 1560, the Presbyterian church had been formed as a result and became the national church of Scotland. The Calvinistic theology also impacted many of the English to the south of Scotland: the group known as the Puritans soon emerged as the Calvinistic church in England. Many of these Puritans fled England in the 1610s and in 1620 ended up in the colonies in America, where they would create a theocracy in Massachusetts. During this time period, Puritanism gained political power with the execution of Charles I of England and the establishment of the Commonwealth; the Puritan churches in America were at this time given the label of "Congregationalist," since each congregation governed itself, while Calvinism in England and Scotland tended to be governed by presbyteries. This label holds to this day. Finally, around the same time as the Puritan voyage to America, in 1628, a group of Dutch Calvinists came together and created the Reformed church.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Variants

The three main branches of Calvinism today are the Presbyterian Church, the United Church of Christ (the UCC; known informally as the Congregational churches), and the Reformed churches, in America called the Reformed Churches of America. The differences began as cultural and doctrinal, with the Presbyterians as Scots (or the English "Puritans" in the seventeenth century) desiring a system of episcopal oversight by elders ("presbyters"), the Congregationalists as English desiring congregational autonomy (the "Puritan Separatists"), and the Reformed as Dutch; today, these cultural distinctions are still existent, but many theological differences have sprouted. The Presbyterian church today denies limited atonement, that Christ died only for the sins of a few. The Presbyterian, and especially the United Church of Christ, is known today for a "historically critical" interpretation of the Scriptures, believing that the message must be understood in its first-century context, and both attempt in many ways to distance themselves today from some of the teachings of Calvinism, from Calvin himself and many of its adherents in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:24 am 
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it helps a ton with recruiting, and isn't that what's more important?" No.


So God is Mack Brown?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:28 am 
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Ultimately it may be as simple as fear of the unknown. I do not have this fear, but I do have this one:

Defecaloesiophobia- Fear of painful bowels movements.

edit: ....and thanks to the Cap'n my newest fear: Taintickophobia :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Ben Harper - Fight for Your Mind - "God Fearing Man"

From back when Ben was worth listening to. Although, in all fairness, I haven't bothered to check out his new album.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:53 pm 
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Old Kentucky Wrote:
Although, in all fairness, I haven't bothered to check out his new album.

Worth a shot, man.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:02 pm 
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albion Wrote:
Ultimately it may be as simple as fear of the unknown. I do not have this fear, but I do have this one:

Defecaloesiophobia- Fear of painful bowels movements.

edit: ....and thanks to the Cap'n my newest fear: Taintickophobia :shock:


Not atall. (tips hat)

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