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 Post subject: Discipline in Public Schools...?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:07 pm 
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So I was just talking to some strange businessman in a parking lot 2 hours ago ("Nice bike" thanks, etc), and he asked eventually what I thought about Wisconsiners vs Southerners. I told him there were only 2 concrete, verifiable things I'd noticed so far: People here don't hold doors for one another like we did down there, and that kids here are allowed to mouth off to the teachers in a way that would get them killed down south. I only know this last part because we have or have had 4 friends or relatives up here who taught, and all agreed that kids were allowed to go WAAY too far without ever being suspended, much less spanked or anything... and these were all native WI'ers.

I mention this because his response was that letting kids call teachers "fucking assholes" or whatever without much retribution helps them to grow up questioning authority, and avoid becoming what he called "robots of the state."

Say what?

This puzzled me somehwat all the way home. How does stopping kids from disrupting class and disrespecting the poor shmucks up there trying to educate them for 30 grand a year turn children into robots of the state?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:26 pm 
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yeah... when I was a kid in the south I used to get reprimanded sternly in school all the time. And by "reprimanded sternly" I mean "penetrated in the rear-end by a large gentleman in overalls."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:28 pm 
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What kinda alternative school did your parents ship you to??


All I'm saying is, we weren't "perfect" or anything close to it, but we damn-sure called teachers by respectful titles, and if anyone had even dreamed of telling a teacher to fuck off, they'd be out of class for a good long while at the least. It doesn't even phase people here.

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[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:32 pm 
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Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
What kinda alternative school did your parents ship you to??


All I'm saying is, we weren't "perfect" or anything close to it, but we damn-sure called teachers by respectful titles, and if anyone had even dreamed of telling a teacher to fuck off, they'd be out of class for a good long while at the least. It doesn't even phase people here.

Oh I'm not so sure about that. I am sure I SHOULD have been expelled from many of the things I said to teachers, even calling Ms. Houghton a stupid bald cancer havin bitch when she tried to take my baseball hat in 10th grade.

And making Ms. Guice cry at least 3 times. Now, I rarely cussed teachers out, but minor shit like refusing to speak French in French class, leaving whenever I felt like it, etc...

Of course I was discplined somewhat, but not anything dire.

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harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:35 pm 
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Senator Marmie LooGAR Wrote:
even calling Ms. Houghton a stupid bald cancer havin bitch when she tried to take my baseball hat in 10th grade.


oh you are an evil bastard, aren't you?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:41 pm 
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dnorwood Wrote:
Senator Marmie LooGAR Wrote:
even calling Ms. Houghton a stupid bald cancer havin bitch when she tried to take my baseball hat in 10th grade.


oh you are an evil bastard, aren't you?


You can't tell me that lady was ever nice, and she tried to take my hat. I used to take things even more seriously than I do now, if you can imagine, Dana.

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harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:42 pm 
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I'm not sayin it's right, but corporal punishment kept the peace here. Now that it's gone, our schools have zero control over the kids, and teachers put up with that shit almost daily.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:42 pm 
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nah, I never had her for a teacher but I think she'd been fighting cancer for some time.

btw, I had Dr. Ramig for senior English so I think that trumps Ms. Houghton. Was Ramig even there when you were in school? Think Nurse Ratchett with better clothing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:44 pm 
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do you think it's really a north/south thing as opposed to a time thing?

when i went to school (80's - early 90's), no one spoke to teachers that way.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:46 pm 
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elephantstone Wrote:
do you think it's really a north/south thing as opposed to a time thing?

when i went to school (80's - early 90's), no one spoke to teachers that way.


Same here. I mean there were kids who'd act up in class and I witnessed a student making a teacher cry during class, but that was certainly not the norm.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:48 pm 
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I wonder what you'd think of the kids in NYC schools?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:53 pm 
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dnorwood Wrote:
nah, I never had her for a teacher but I think she'd been fighting cancer for some time.

btw, I had Dr. Ramig for senior English so I think that trumps Ms. Houghton. Was Ramig even there when you were in school? Think Nurse Ratchett with better clothing.


I think he retired my junior year. I believe bloor may have had him.

I always tell my friends who are teachers that I admire them, because I know if a kid acted like I did to me, I'd have to beat that ass.

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:12 pm 
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It's also a part of the whole Self-Esteem Preservation Society.

Sorry, you ain't special just by virtue of walking upright. You have to accomplish something or set yourself apart in some positive or meaningful way before you get tagged with special.

Strangely enough, I was pretty pissed when I heard on the radio today that Baltimore City schools let out 2.5 hours early, due to the heat. Yeah, the heat. It's 88 degrees. Not even 90. If we don't take school seriously, why the hell should they?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:18 pm 
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elephantstone Wrote:
do you think it's really a north/south thing as opposed to a time thing?

when i went to school (80's - early 90's), no one spoke to teachers that way.


I'd probably agree with that. When I was in middle school in the early 80s, there was still corporal punishment via a large strap to the hands, meted out by a rather imposing prinicipal. At least in my neck of the woods, the principal could literally grab you by the scruff and push you around. The threat of physical violence was never far off. Never got the strap though, I knew how far I could push something, I think. I remember getting kicked out of French class for some pretty mundane stuff by today's standards.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:18 pm 
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I always make sure I'm indoors when the schools are coming out. Kids today don't give a shit about anything.

And I'm not saying we were angels (far from it) but there was some things you didn't do. Now there's no boundaries at all.

I don't really believe in corporal punishment and even if it was brought back I doubt it would improve anything. If you tried to birch or belt a kid these days they'd pull a stanely knife on you and dare you.

The problem is much deeper than that anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:23 pm 
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konstantinl Wrote:
I always make sure I'm indoors when the schools are coming out. Kids today don't give a shit about anything.

And I'm not saying we were angels (far from it) but there was some things you didn't do. Now there's no boundaries at all.

I don't really believe in corporal punishment and even if it was brought back I doubt it would improve anything. If you tried to birch or belt a kid these days they'd pull a stanely knife on you and dare you.

The problem is much deeper than that anyway.


I'd agree with that too. It's a very complex issue as to why exactly kids today are "allowed" to get away with what they do and probably has to do with changes on multiple levels (home, school, societal, legal). I'm certain that the existence of corporal punishment at school, and in my home growing up, kept me walking along a straighter line. The punishment was always reasonable, so I'm generally not totally opposed to it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:26 pm 
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My dad was a principal for 26 yrs, and he began his career at one of the worse possible schools. The things he did back in 70's would certainly get him arrested today, and it would probably be warranted. But it worked

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:13 pm 
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My question is the one that always pops up... "where does that lead us?"

Is this, like the hem lines on skirts, a cyclical thing (as opposed to the skirts getting shorter and eventually girls' stuff hanging out, it goes up and down every 20-30 years...), and "discipline" makes a comeback one day, etc etc, or is this a march over a cliff?

This same question applies to tv violence, movie violence etc., and is what puts that extra, final twist in the panties of Tipper Gore et al. I don't believe it is indeed a slippery slope, but is it accepted that we're at the very least in a trough right now, manners-wise?


edit: forgive dated Tipper reference, I recognize it's no longer 1987...

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[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:32 pm 
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i would not want teachers laying a finger on my kids - I'd have to put the smack down on them. what they should do is send them home and I will deal with it.

problem is a lot of parents don't give a rats ass - then you just kick those kids out of school if they can't behave.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:48 pm 
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I agree with the earlier comment that there was some sort of invisible line when I was in school way back when (HS class of '87). I clowned around and dressed all punk rock, but I was always basically respectful if a teacher called me out & told me to pipe down etc.

I feel like such a codger in these conversations "these kids today"...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:01 am 
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rparis74 Wrote:
problem is a lot of parents don't give a rats ass - then you just kick those kids out of school if they can't behave.


And then what? Where do they go to learn not to be a drain on society? When will they be around good examples and how will they be socialized? What about the fact that alot of times a district doesn't have the resources to send the kid anywhere else, or the permission to do so, and you just have to deal with that same kid the next year?

Positive reinforcement is really difficult to employ, but it works better than negative reinforcement, and it battles the whole learned defeatism thing much better.

But it still sucks my will to live. Parents need to fill out applications before they're allowed to procreate. In urban schools, the real problem is that alot of the parents are still young kids to begin with.

-Phil

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:39 am 
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the teachers at my school get the kids in line without using corporal punishment. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. You guys' teachers must all be softcore emo-listenin' children-fearin' beeeattches.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:43 am 
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a mighty good leader Wrote:
the teachers at my school get the kids in line without using corporal punishment. R-E-S-P-E-C-T. You guys' teachers must all be softcore emo-listenin' children-fearin' beeeattches.


Whenever your teachers want to come to Chicago and give it a whirl, let me know.

The view is different from this side of the fence.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:47 am 
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Good post about the parents, Phil.

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