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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:34 pm 
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especially in an era where they were stacking 9 in the box regularly


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Sketch Wrote:
A lot of that is Walsh's system... and Rice. Switch Elway and Montana that the starting point in their careers. Elway becomes the undisputable best QB ever, and Montana is pumping gas after two or three seasons.


You don't mean that. Please don't say you mean that.

Joe Mo would have won in any system. Dude was a winner. Bottom line.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:39 pm 
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No love for Chuck Bednarik?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:40 pm 
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here's the situation....11 guys on the football field knew that Brown was getting the ball and all they had to do was tackle him. They could not prevent him from getting 5 yards every time he touched the football. At most, Jerry Rice had 3 people on him at any one time.

The best football player of all time cannot be a receiver, in my opinion. I do consider Rice to be the best receiver all of time, of course, but that's really just obvious.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:41 pm 
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All time ranks:

Jim Brown:
Among the league's all-time top 50
Rushes: 17
Rushing yards: 8
Rushing TDs: 4
Yards from scrimmage: 13
Rush/Receive TDs: 6


Jerry Rice:
Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 1
Receiving yards: 1
Receiving TDs: 1
Yards from scrimmage: 1
Rush/Receive TDs: 1

Plus Rice has a Gretzky-like gap between 2nd place in all categories.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:42 pm 
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where does Brown rank in YPC among the top 50


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:43 pm 
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Spade Kitty Wrote:
The best football player of all time cannot be a receiver .


Yeah, that's always been my problem with making this argument.....But you (like I did) have to get over it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:43 pm 
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Brown also only played, what 9 seasons? If Rice had played only 9 seasons what would his numbers be?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:44 pm 
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Spade Kitty Wrote:
where does Brown rank in YPC among the top 50


what am I, your Stats machine? :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:44 pm 
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I think if you compare the first nine seasons of every top 50 back to Brown's career he is number 1 or number 2 in every category....Smith possibly has more TDs


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:45 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Jerry Rice:
Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 1
Receiving yards: 1
Receiving TDs: 1
Yards from scrimmage: 1
Rush/Receive TDs: 1

Plus Rice has a Gretzky-like gap between 2nd place in all categories.
honestly he played for 20 years with hall of fame quarterbacks for more than half of them. he was great but it'd be embarassing were his numbers not this substantial.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:45 pm 
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Spade Kitty Wrote:
Brown also only played, what 9 seasons? If Rice had played only 9 seasons what would his numbers be?


So, now you are blaming Rice b/c he had longevity?

BTW, Rice was not some pussy wideout---Dude was never afraid to go across the middle where the big hits are.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:46 pm 
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Jim Brown is obviously being brought down by his acting career.

I'm Gonna Git You Sucka! is a phenomenal film.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:48 pm 
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no way is the best player ever a WR. and not taking too much away from rice, but playing 20 years had better get you some sort of record.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Joey Crack Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
Jerry Rice:
Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 1
Receiving yards: 1
Receiving TDs: 1
Yards from scrimmage: 1
Rush/Receive TDs: 1

Plus Rice has a Gretzky-like gap between 2nd place in all categories.
honestly he played for 20 years with hall of fame quarterbacks for more than half of them. he was great but it'd be embarassing were his numbers not this substantial.


the argument that "he played in this system" or "he played with this guy" is stupid. You still have to make plays.

I dont see Mark Clayton with 1549 catches and he played with Dan Marino....

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Spade Kitty Wrote:
Brown also only played, what 9 seasons? If Rice had played only 9 seasons what would his numbers be?


So, now you are blaming Rice b/c he had longevity?

BTW, Rice was not some pussy wideout---Dude was never afraid to go across the middle where the big hits are.


No, but you are surely blaming Brown for having a short career when you focus on cumulative stats that mean nothing necessarily in terms of how good of a football player you are


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:52 pm 
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Spade Kitty Wrote:
No, but you are surely blaming Brown for having a short career when you focus on cumulative stats that mean nothing necessarily in terms of how good of a football player you are


Brown should blame himself for having a short career; thats not my cross to bare.

Seriously, this is the kind of convoluted thinking that lets someone as obviously unqualified as Gale Sayers in to the Hall of Fame.

Potential my ass. In football, longevity means something; its not like baseball where you can peddle your fat ass out as a DH for 6 years. Once you are done in football--that's it.

And I'm not focusing on cumulative stats---I'm just using them as illustration.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Yeah, but when you throw up all-time rankings for Rice, you have to consider that he played for twice as many seasons as Brown, and each season was 2-4 games longer than when Brown played.

Yes, Rice's longevity is impressive, but I think longevity is really more of a second-tier criteria when assessing the best of all time. He's really not been great for several years.

And SKitty, Jim Brown is #1 in yards per carry.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:09 pm 
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Can I also point out that none of you guys EVER saw Jim Brown play?

Edit: me neither and I still consider him a Top 5'er....

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:16 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Spade Kitty Wrote:
No, but you are surely blaming Brown for having a short career when you focus on cumulative stats that mean nothing necessarily in terms of how good of a football player you are


Brown should blame himself for having a short career; thats not my cross to bare.

Seriously, this is the kind of convoluted thinking that lets someone as obviously unqualified as Gale Sayers in to the Hall of Fame.

Potential my ass. In football, longevity means something; its not like baseball where you can peddle your fat ass out as a DH for 6 years. Once you are done in football--that's it.

And I'm not focusing on cumulative stats---I'm just using them as illustration.


Sayers should not be in the hall, and this is coming from a Bears fan.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:17 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Can I also point out that none of you guys EVER saw Jim Brown play?

Edit: me neither and I still consider him a Top 5'er....
this is what you're making the argument on, that rice is a better football player because you watched his games live and not on film?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:18 pm 
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Spade Kitty Wrote:

Sayers should not be in the hall, and this is coming from a Bears fan.


I take it all back, Spade----you are actually a rational human being. :wink:

I thought you'd lose your shit on that one.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:23 pm 
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Joey Crack Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
Can I also point out that none of you guys EVER saw Jim Brown play?

Edit: me neither and I still consider him a Top 5'er....
this is what you're making the argument on, that rice is a better football player because you watched his games live and not on film?


no, but just like the numbers, its a part of the argument.

can you honestly tell me that Wilt or Russell are worse than Jordan? I mean, having witnessed someone on a week to week basis for a long time I think helps you assess their career a bit better.

I know for a fact that Jim Brown was a damn man and one of the best ever, but I consider Rice to be a better player. Par of this has to do with longevity. Part of it has to do with stats. Part of it has to be that I saw him.

And, in the end it has to do with my ability to put all of these things together.

And there is no disputing me on these things once I have made up my mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:25 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Spade Kitty Wrote:

Sayers should not be in the hall, and this is coming from a Bears fan.


I take it all back, Spade----you are actually a rational human being. :wink:

I thought you'd lose your shit on that one.

On the longevity issue, for the record, I don't think Koufax belongs in the Hall. Yet if I had to win one game and could take any pitcher in his prime...

Steve


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