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 Post subject: NMR:Interesting, Rotterdam a solution for New Orleans?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:52 am 
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(CBS) Hurricanes are a fact of life for coastal residents of the southeast. And even as New Orleans pumps out Katrina's flood, scientists know the city will face the same threat again.

The question is: how to hold back the sea. CBS News Correspondent Mark Phillips reports that one proven way is the Dutch way.

This may sound familiar: A storm surge overwhelms a low-lying coastline. Flood barriers give way. Thousands killed, tens of thousands made homeless.

Except this isn't the U.S. Gulf coast in 2005. It's Holland in 1953. These aren't called the Low Countries for nothing.

What the Dutch learned then, and how they responded, may hold lessons for post-Katrina America.

"When we have an increase water level four meters above sea level then half of Holland is below water," said Peter Persoon of the Dutch Sea Defenses Authority.

The Dutch response was not simply to shore up the dike system that failed, but to build a new system of outer sea barriers – massive, complex structures stretching for miles. It cost about $8 billion – a lot of money for a small country – but the Dutch knew it was a matter of pay me now or pay me later.




"The choice we have to make here is to give safety to one million people and it cost money," said Persoon. "But it's cheaper than afterwards when we have a big disaster and one million people get flooded."

The greatest challenge was to protect Rotterdam, yet still allow shipping into its crucial port. The answer was gigantic and ingenious moving arches that can be swung out into the river and then sunk there to block any incoming storm surge.

The Dutch long ago learned that this is a really simple problem — if you want to keep the land and water where they are supposed to be, you have to spend whatever it takes to build a barrier to keep them apart.

With climate change, rising sea levels and more severe storms in the future, the Dutch think they'll have to close this barrier every three or four years.

In Holland they think the choice in the U.S. is inevitable.

"New Orleans, what I know, is also low. So by the rising of the sea level you have to build something," Persoon said.

"No choice?" asked Phillips

"No choice or leave the area," Persoon said.

The same choice they faced here.

©MMV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:00 am 
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Yeah I saw a segment on CNN about this. Those are massive flood barriers they've built. They cover the entire coast below the city and look like they scoop outward right into the Black Sea surf when fully deployed. Humongous hydraulic things.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:33 am 
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frosted Wrote:
Yeah I saw a segment on CNN about this. Those are massive flood barriers they've built. They cover the entire coast below the city and look like they scoop outward right into the Black Sea surf when fully deployed. Humongous hydraulic things.


North Sea.

[waltersobczak]Shut the fuck up, Monty.[/waltersobczak]

The North Sea.

[waltersobczak]Shut the fuck up, Monty.[/waltersobczak]

The North Sea.

[waltersobczak]Monty, shut the fuck up!... I know what sea it is, I just misspoke.... Now, Dude, we're talking about a valued rug here, and they peed on it.[/waltersobczak]


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:29 pm 
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The issue here, as usual, is money. No one here wants to spend the billions of dollars it takes to build something like this.

Then something horrible happens, & we end up paying more than it would've cost to avoid in the first place.

Holland = smart

U.S. = dumb


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:39 pm 
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DiggityDawg Wrote:
The issue here, as usual, is money. No one here wants to spend the billions of dollars it takes to build something like this.

Then something horrible happens, & we end up paying more than it would've cost to avoid in the first place.

Holland = smart

U.S. = dumb


Its always money... in this case its not just the 8 billion (which would probaby cost more in the US) but the 500 million a year in maintenance..


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:55 pm 
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Heh. Monty. Yeah. That'd be a hell of an engineering achievement to control Dutch flooding from Yalta or Sveti Vlas.

Whoops.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:07 pm 
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frosted Wrote:
Heh. Monty. Yeah. That'd be a hell of an engineering achievement to control Dutch flooding from Yalta or Sveti Vlas.

Whoops.


Well, they could volunteer their expertise to policing the Danube's flooding.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:12 pm 
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We could do that. But how about we RESTORE Louisiana's natural defenses first with barrier islands and wetlands to protect the inhabital parts. Building outleys for the Mississippi to redistribute land would go along way.

Also building the planned Morganza to the Gulf protection to category 5 instead of the planned cat 3 level would do alot to insure that I'll have a home for 10 more years.

Honestly, I think we know how to protect Louisiana. We just haven't dedicated the money.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:06 pm 
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oldbulee Wrote:
We could do that. But how about we RESTORE Louisiana's natural defenses first with barrier islands and wetlands to protect the inhabital parts. Building outleys for the Mississippi to redistribute land would go along way.

Also building the planned Morganza to the Gulf protection to category 5 instead of the planned cat 3 level would do alot to insure that I'll have a home for 10 more years.

Honestly, I think we know how to protect Louisiana. We just haven't dedicated the money.


and how do we keep houses from sinking?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:11 pm 
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f4df Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
We could do that. But how about we RESTORE Louisiana's natural defenses first with barrier islands and wetlands to protect the inhabital parts. Building outleys for the Mississippi to redistribute land would go along way.

Also building the planned Morganza to the Gulf protection to category 5 instead of the planned cat 3 level would do alot to insure that I'll have a home for 10 more years.

Honestly, I think we know how to protect Louisiana. We just haven't dedicated the money.


and how do we keep houses from sinking?



Someday, son, all this will be yours!

But I don't want it father...I want to SING

(so I built another castle on top of that one and it sank into the swamp....she has vast tracts of land, etc.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:30 pm 
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f4df Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
We could do that. But how about we RESTORE Louisiana's natural defenses first with barrier islands and wetlands to protect the inhabital parts. Building outleys for the Mississippi to redistribute land would go along way.

Also building the planned Morganza to the Gulf protection to category 5 instead of the planned cat 3 level would do alot to insure that I'll have a home for 10 more years.

Honestly, I think we know how to protect Louisiana. We just haven't dedicated the money.


and how do we keep houses from sinking?


I'm not an expert but this is suppose to solve that problem too actually.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:33 pm 
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DiggityDawg Wrote:
The issue here, as usual, is money. No one here wants to spend the billions of dollars it takes to build something like this.

Then something horrible happens, & we end up paying more than it would've cost to avoid in the first place.

Holland = smart

U.S. = dumb


How many people have the Dutch sent into space?

Just checking there, dumbass.....

I dont think largess equals dumbness.

Obviously, we will do something here but its gonna have to be done in concert with the petrol industry down there since they are about the only reason to not just flood the whole fucking state. :wink:

Sorry guys, I love Luzeeanna.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
DiggityDawg Wrote:
The issue here, as usual, is money. No one here wants to spend the billions of dollars it takes to build something like this.

Then something horrible happens, & we end up paying more than it would've cost to avoid in the first place.

Holland = smart

U.S. = dumb


How many people have the Dutch sent into space?

Just checking there, dumbass.....

I dont think largess equals dumbness.

Obviously, we will do something here but its gonna have to be done in concert with the petrol industry down there since they are about the only reason to not just flood the whole fucking state. :wink:

Sorry guys, I love Luzeeanna.


In Diggity's defense, I think he was not limiting himself to a particular speciality, sub-speciality, or other niche in science/maths/engineering. As well, there is the European Space Agency - though they have not sent many, if any, manned missions to orbit.

As it goes, then, I think it might have been more responsible, but even less instructive, to full back on the "pennywise, poundfoolish"/"pennyfoolish, poundwise" saw to express the manner in which Holland prepars better than the U.S. for various climatic and/or geographic contingencies.

So, shame on Diggity Dawg for being crass, but not trite.

But he's still half-way there.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:44 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
DiggityDawg Wrote:
The issue here, as usual, is money. No one here wants to spend the billions of dollars it takes to build something like this.

Then something horrible happens, & we end up paying more than it would've cost to avoid in the first place.

Holland = smart

U.S. = dumb


How many people have the Dutch sent into space?

Just checking there, dumbass.....

I dont think largess equals dumbness.

Obviously, we will do something here but its gonna have to be done in concert with the petrol industry down there since they are about the only reason to not just flood the whole fucking state. :wink:

Sorry guys, I love Luzeeanna.


I will personally piss on every oyster in the gulf in hopes that it reaches your mouth :wink:

_________________
I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:56 pm 
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oldbulee Wrote:
I will personally piss on every oyster in the gulf in hopes that it reaches your mouth :wink:


We get farm raised from West VA up here and I only fish out of Appalachacola---I got no use for that oil covered, multi eyed, shit you guys have down there.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:02 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
I will personally piss on every oyster in the gulf in hopes that it reaches your mouth :wink:


We get farm raised from West VA up here and I only fish out of Appalachacola---I got no use for that oil covered, multi eyed, shit you guys have down there.


That's where you're wrong my friend. Nothing compares to a Louisiana oyster. Oil covered or not. Gulf shrimp is also superior.

I will then personally shit on all oil that comes in to the US in hopes that it reaches your truck.

_________________
I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:11 pm 
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oldbulee Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
I will personally piss on every oyster in the gulf in hopes that it reaches your mouth :wink:


We get farm raised from West VA up here and I only fish out of Appalachacola---I got no use for that oil covered, multi eyed, shit you guys have down there.


That's where you're wrong my friend. Nothing compares to a Louisiana oyster. Oil covered or not. Gulf shrimp is also superior.

I will then personally shit on all oil that comes in to the US in hopes that it reaches your truck.


I actually prefer fresh anything out of the Gulf----its just that I fish out of the App, which is on the Gulf in FLA(on the oyster beds actually) but if I was down your way I would be all over yalls shit. I cant get enough fresh Gulf seafood.

Up here, we have this oyster bar that gets these farm raised oysters from WV----they are actually pretty edible though I gotta get 'em steamed.....its a distance thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:12 pm 
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oldbulee Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
I will personally piss on every oyster in the gulf in hopes that it reaches your mouth :wink:


We get farm raised from West VA up here and I only fish out of Appalachacola---I got no use for that oil covered, multi eyed, shit you guys have down there.


That's where you're wrong my friend. Nothing compares to a Louisiana oyster. Oil covered or not. Gulf shrimp is also superior.

I will then personally shit on all oil that comes in to the US in hopes that it reaches your truck.


Gulf oysters and shrimp own. Also, interestingly enough, when they built oil derricks out from Mobile, the state sued Exxon, Shell, etc...saying it would irreperably damge the environment/fishing, etc...now, if you ask any fisherman down here, they will tell you the best place to set you hooks is by the oil derricks. Irony.

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:38 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
DiggityDawg Wrote:
The issue here, as usual, is money. No one here wants to spend the billions of dollars it takes to build something like this.

Then something horrible happens, & we end up paying more than it would've cost to avoid in the first place.

Holland = smart

U.S. = dumb


How many people have the Dutch sent into space?

Just checking there, dumbass.....

I dont think largess equals dumbness.

Obviously, we will do something here but its gonna have to be done in concert with the petrol industry down there since they are about the only reason to not just flood the whole fucking state. :wink:

Sorry guys, I love Luzeeanna.



Dumbass? :roll:

And WTF does anyone's Space Program have to do with anything?

All I said was that it would've been smarter to spend say, 10 billion dollars then...instead of the TENS of billions we're gonna hafta shell out NOW.

If that's being a "dumbass" I'm gonna vote for every fucking "dumbass" I can find from now on.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:32 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
I will personally piss on every oyster in the gulf in hopes that it reaches your mouth :wink:


We get farm raised from West VA up here and I only fish out of Appalachacola---I got no use for that oil covered, multi eyed, shit you guys have down there.
You don't know what you're missing. The more shit those things have ingested/filtered/whatever, the better...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:47 am 
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Senator <> LooGAR Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
oldbulee Wrote:
I will personally piss on every oyster in the gulf in hopes that it reaches your mouth :wink:


We get farm raised from West VA up here and I only fish out of Appalachacola---I got no use for that oil covered, multi eyed, shit you guys have down there.


That's where you're wrong my friend. Nothing compares to a Louisiana oyster. Oil covered or not. Gulf shrimp is also superior.

I will then personally shit on all oil that comes in to the US in hopes that it reaches your truck.


Gulf oysters and shrimp own. Also, interestingly enough, when they built oil derricks out from Mobile, the state sued Exxon, Shell, etc...saying it would irreperably damge the environment/fishing, etc...now, if you ask any fisherman down here, they will tell you the best place to set you hooks is by the oil derricks. Irony.


When it comes to oysters, Pac NW and NE Atlantic own all. The cooler the water the better the oyster, a generally well known rule amongst bi-valve philes. I am fond of the Gulf oyster and the Appalachicola as well, but even in a taste test I have always chosen the northerly cousins. That would be many tests over 2 summers in a fish market. Damn that was a tasty job!


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