Fuck unions.

eat the rich

I knew you would spout some ignorant-ass bullshit like this. That's what I meant by "those battles have been won"



I agree and I agree with some regulation; Not even worth it to discuss what that legislation should be; I know when I'm arguing with a (terminally mentally ill) wall.

Oh, and BTW, Loser, er nobody: In my business, I have hired blacks, whites, latinos men and women; I pay 100% of my employees health insurance and limit them to a five day work week;

There isnt one government regualtion that says that I have to do any of those things, yet I do---even though it costs me money......Dipshit.

Glad to hear you're part of the minority of those who actually take good care of their employees because its the right thing to do.

Sad to hear you're a fuckin' idiot who can't have a rational discussion and make any sort of point beyond name calling and petty insults that make absolutely no difference to me. I've been called much worse by people I actually give a shit about.

By the way, no battles have been "won". It's all part of an ongoing struggle that ebbs and flows with the political and social winds and will still be going on long after you and I are gone. I guess I should add...you sorry ass loser... if I wanna talk to you in language you may understand.

OK...I'll be honest here...you're not a singluar ray of light out there. There are plenty of fine upstanding business owners who go out of their way for their employees. I have known a few myself and it truly is an admirable quality.

I'm just not naive enough to think everyone will be one big happy family if we leave everything up to whoever has the biggest piece of the pie as to how it gets sliced up.

Actually, most buisness leaders are taught and believe that the best business practice is taking care of their employees because good employees are invaluable. Who's naive? In my opinion believing that businesses would revert to industrial revolution era practices is naive.

I think it really says a lot that the upper class has captured almost all of the gains in wealth from the growth in gdp in recent decades. Our country has more than enough money to give everyone a decent education, health care, good housing and a livable wage. Yet, this is not happening in America today.

Nader recently pointed out the following.

• For the private production and non-supervisory workers who make up 80 percent of the workforce, it took until the late 1990s to return to thereal earnings levels of 1979.
• CEOs at large corporations now make about three hundred times more than the average worker at their firms. In 1982, they made just forty-two times more; in 1965, twenty-six times more.
• The top fifth of households own more than 83 percent of the nation's wealth, the bottom 80 percent less than 17 percent.
• The top 1 percent owns over 38 percent of the nation's wealth, more than double the amount of wealth controlled by the bottom 80 percent.
• The top 1 percent's financial wealth is equal to that of the bottom 95 percent.
• In 1979, the top 5 percent had eleven times the average income of the bottom 20 percent. By 2000, the top 5 percent had nineteen times the income of the bottom 20 percent.
• Whatever the data examined, it's worse for women and people of color, who receive lower wages and have much less accumulated wealth than White men. Women and minority males earn 70 percent to 80 percent of what White men make. More than a third of single mothers with children live in poverty.

Yail Bloor, it's nice and comforting that you are an honest employer, but you are unfortunately in the minority. America is more productive than ever, yet people are not getting their fair share of the wealth and prosperity. Call us communists for being pro-union, but I like to refer to us as pro-family.

Well, we're also taught not to do drugs, drive fast, drink too much, screw around, and a whole host of things that the vast majority partake of at one time or another...I've just listed a few of my favorites.

Are you saying that I am naive because I think students once they leave the cosy confines of college may actually do things a bit contrary to what they are taught? Or that businessmen or anyone else for that matter may not always adheare to what will say when asked by some journalist or textbook writer for a story going in print?

I'll agree with you there, nobody to a point; to wit: a lot of people definitely don't do what they are taught or should do. But I also agree with oldbulee---it does make more sense to treat your employees right; It definitely helps to keep hands out of the cookie jar. And I'm far from rich and run a small business.....I need those cookies dammit.

I guess the thing that infuriates me about y'alls argument is that it has no scope....Believe me, I have problems with all sorts of large corporations (insurance companies being foremost); but its just not applicable to small businesses.

Borg,

The politics of class warfare and envy is so tired. You talk about the top 1% like they are some priveleged static class. People move in and out of the top 1% everyday. Most people in the top 1% are self-made and didn't get there without creating tons of jobs, products and services that people value and paying lots of taxes along the way.

Furthermore, what you fail to realize or point out is that even the bottom 20% have a higher standard of living than the average person in most countries including industrialized nations like Japan when measured by creature comforts like size of apartment/house, having cable television, microwave ovens, internet access, etc.

You point out how well off our nation is and how there should be enough to go around. But what you don't seem to realize is that its the very capitalist system that you rail against that is what's made our country so well off.

I'm pro-union as long as it's credit unions. I mean, they give you money and shit.

Yes, poor people here are better off than in some other countries, but that doesn't mean that "living" on less than a living wage, no health care and bad schools should be tolerated in a country as wealthy as ours. It's almost psychotic how high the level of poverty is here.

The free market/free trade is a myth. Subsidies/protectionism are what keep our economy alive. If we actually practiced unbridled capitalism, the economy would self destruct in 3 seconds.

Okay, so what is a living wage, and who is so intelligent to determine the amount? Should we also throw in a Chevy Cobalt while we're at it, because we can afford to buy everybody one of those, too.

Dem antebellum planters used to argue the same thing.

I come from an anti-union upbringing, but have in-laws who are union. Each and every one of them who belongs to a union does so for one purpose: to be lazy. Believe me, unions are not the answer.

Don't you teach?

Yeah, but I don't belong to, or contribute to any union.

You are my new hero.

There's a big to-do up here from the teachers union bullying the non-union teachers to join.

Ours are pretty ineffective, as far as I can see. A good union would have had Blanco's neck on the chopping block (literally) after the way she monkey-humped us this summer.

Our teachers union was just handed the resignation of the superintendent after a couple years worth of whining and refusing to adapt and/or change to his new policies and direction. The departing superintendent should to okay though--he's headed to Harvard.

Recently they held a fundraiser for something or other, and in the night's program they publicly questioned people who didn't donate. Class move, huh.

You're talking like a communist and look how communism worked out.

Subsidies and potectionist trade policies work insofar as they help out only a small portion of the population. The capitalist. The people who run the import/export businesses, and farmers who farm for commercial interests. In reality, the market economy is the best thing going for society today.

People who work at Wal Mart and work under shitty ass conditions bring it upon themselves. If they had a proper education growing up, they mighta gone to college and had themselves a nice 9-5 job. Don't feel sorry for their own laziness and misgivings. a welfare state only works for so long before it works up huge deficits and the economy goes into a recession.

Call it pessimistic, but being fiscal conservative towards policies on labour and employment will only help to improve growth in Western countries. I am in no way a conservative, but there is no room for pussy liberalist idealism when it comes to running a country from a perspective that the ecomony can get affected. Liberals are not businessmen, they are little whiny bitches who can make speeches on abortion and crap. But a Liberal can't run a country with Liberal fiscal policies and expect the outlook of the country to improve.

Are you talking about the Soviet Union? I've never supported countries like that.



You assume that I'm talking about the protectionist policies that only favor the rich. It's possible to set up trade agreements that protect the poor as well. You won't see it in NAFTA or the WTO though.



Yes, I think a lot of people didn't go to college when they had the chance, but there will always be people who work service jobs who are paid minimum wage. My problem is that those people at least deserve a living wage for working full time. It doesn't mean they should necessarily be paid enough to own a Mercedes-Benz or something, but enough money to pay all the bills, health care for their children, decent housing, etc.

One of my major beefs with conservative republicans using neoliberalism to win poor people over is that they somehow make people believe that everyone will be a millionaire someday. Yeah, some people will become millionaires, but we still need safety nets to protect the working class. Extreme capitalism and extreme socialism are fantasies and there needs to be a balance. Unfortunately, the economy is tilted too far to the right when it comes to social spending for my taste.



Based on what I've read, with massive goverment intervention/spending the economy actually does well, but in recent decades, the wealth has not been fairly distributed among the general population. Worker wages have stagnated for three decades even though productivity rose steadily. That's kind of strange, isn't it? Workers making/producing more, but not receiving any share of the increased wealth. Maybe if we had living wage laws, universal health care and a more progressive tax system, people would be better off. But don't mind me, I'm just a crazy commie.

Borg said:



Yeah, but they need to stop spitting out so many kids. Surprisingly enough, many of them find a way to own very nice cars, too.

Yes Borg we all read Das Kapital. I know from the marxist perspective that a capitalist market economy would somehow lead to the decay of civilisation because workers are being paid insufficient wages in respect to the number of hours they put in doing necessary and surplus labour needed to sustain a business. I get where you're coming from. You'd want it under a system where there would be an allocation of capital which would be distributed among society, creating a classless one and there would be no conflict. Dude I used to be a huge supporter of this ideal.
That and social liberalism where workers would be paid increased living wages, benefits, the whole shebang.

The problem, imo with this coming into fruition is: is it possible for ideals like this to sustain and remain strict to doctrine withoiut sibsiding into individualist desires like greed and power? HOw long do you think it would be before someone wants MORE than just being like everyone else. The problem with marxism is that Marx never aproached the question of how humans would be able to abstain from their deepest desires, and if they could sacrifice those desires for the greater good.

The system today in America is unfiar in many respects. There is class, race and economic barriers and conflicts which hinder societal progress. But how would it improve under a different system? I don't think it can, and some people today just gotta play the hand they were dealt with, in one of two ways. fold, and revert to drugs and alife of crime. Or go all in, and try to make the best of your situation by making sure your kids can live in a better environment and that they can someday be more than what you were working, at a low income Wal Mart job.