The debut may not have anything "weak", but it doesn't have too much that's exceptional either. It chugs along, does its job, but at the end leaves little impression.

I like Jimmy Jazz, Lover's Rock I can take or leave--wouldn't call either one "weak".

YES, I agree.




Yessir - saw'em open for The Who circa 80-81...though ironically enough a friend of mine was their guitar gopher for the SF 'Rope' sessions and was completely vexed that they could barely play....at all.

I've talked about their music before. I'll try a different angel as to why they were special:

"When I read NME now, this is what I think, and this is really heavy... If they're teaching the readers to hate us, then I'd like to ask NME who they're teaching the readers to trust? Which groups? Which ideas? I'm looking hard, and I can't see anybody" - Joe Strummer (1981)

Doesn't matter what you think about this statement. Even if think rock & roll bands should just shut up and play doesn't make what Joe said any less extraordinary.

Trust? Ideas? Teaching? What other artist in 1981 (with at least some mainstream success) was talking about these kind of things? What other artist cared?

This is what made the Clash different. You could "believe" in them. They inspired you even if you later found their "message" to be simplistic, incoherent and contradictory. There's two more words-believe, message. The Clash force you to talk about them in ways you wouldn't even consider talking about other bands. Ever heard anyone talk about the Stones message?

And before Loogar jumps on me, I know that he doesn't really fuckin' care about or want a message from the Stones. That's cool. I'm just trying to explain why to a 13 year old me they were "the only band that matters."

Steve

The message I got from The Stones is: Decadence = AWESOME.

And, I guess you feel about The Clash, like I feel about Ice Cube...so I get it, but I don't get ot from them...K?

Did you miss the memo or something? That's what the entire surge of punk and new wave was originally about (and the Clash didn't have any mainstream success until "Rock The Casbah"). So who else was talking about these things? Answer: everybody.

I was gonna offer up Stiff Little Fingers and let it go at that.

I also don't think you can follow the story behind "I'm So Bored With The USA" and give any creedance to "trust in us".

Institut des Hautes Etudes Scientifiques

I'm guessing... "Indie Hipster Elite Set"?

"Train In Vain" was a Top 25 hit. Sorry...stickler about that kinda shit.


Kon : I don't think anyone's talking about "Cut The Crap" because most fans don't really think of it as a "Clash album" .

Ah, "Set". I figured the other part was something like "Internet Hipster Elite".

Either way:

Yeah...and I really don't think any of us qualifies as that> I would say most on the board come by their tastes honestly...and like tgo argue/discuss them ad nauseum

Is that true? Wow. I remember "Train In Vain" being the one song that all the chicks who were normally fans of the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac grasped onto 'cuz it was, like, a ballad instead of that crazy punk rock stuff - but I wasn't aware of it actually being a "hit".

I own no Clash albums. I don't dislike them, and I enjoy the songs I hear on the radio ("Rockin' the Kasbah", etc.), but I just never felt motivated to go out and buy one of their albums.

Why? I dunno. Just not my cup o' tea, I guess.

Bullshit. I'm not going to go through a list of every freakin' punk/new wave band in that "initial surge"(pre 1978), but when the hell did the Ramones, Talking Heads, Television, Blondie, Damned, Pistols, Dolls etc....ever articulate any interest in TALKING about ideas; in attempting to teach their fans anything? Loads of bands were paying lip service to these things, but few, if any, would actually sit down for an interview and ask the questions Joe did

As far as 1981 (and you did say everybody, right?), if you got more out of Duran Duran, Mats, Human League, Sonic Youth, the New Zeland bands, Cure, Depeche Mode, XTC, New Order, Feelies, Echo & the Bunnymen, Devo etc...then their (admittingly in some cases great) music you are one freakin' deep dude. I await your paper on class and how it relates to the social order on Gilligan's Island.

Steve

Don't take this the wrong way because I honestly don't know, but what did Joe Strummer teach his fans?

What was The Clash's message?

I've never been too clear on that. Then again, I've never taken much interest. What ultimately matters to me is the music, and I never thought theirs was very interesting.

One of the funniest things I've ever seen was the singer from The Three Johns doing his Joe Strummer impersonation:

Iiiiiiiiii, ain't never read no books!
Iiiiiiiiii, ain't never read nuffink!

Yeah, he's also in the Mekons. The Mekons were one of the first bands to take the piss out of the Clash with the song-Never Been In A Riot -a sorta answer to White Riot.

Steve

First thing you've got to understand is that my reply is coming from the 1980 me. Now I can see all the warts, distortions, LIES and contradictions.

But to the 13 year old me the Clash were the first band that "taught" me that rock & roll was about more than a catchy verse, making cash or, hell, even getting laid. Joe Strummer believed that rock & roll had the power to change the world...and I believed him! And although I can now see some of the naivety in that, the romantic fool in me still wants to believe and I owe that to Joe Strummer and the Clash.

The Clash were taking on issues about race, greed, fan worship, sexism and revolution. Their message was incoherent, but at least they were trying.

I'm not saying that Joe and the Clash were the first to bring these things up, but they were the first band that made me listen.

As far as not digging the music, that's cool. You like what you like.

Anyway, if anyone does want to PM me on the subject you're welcome to, but for the time being I just have too much going on to spend as much time as I would normally like here...so I'm gone.

Steve

I guess this brings me back to feeling like they're tied to a specific place and time, possibly much more than others of their era. Nowadays it might not seem like a big deal for a band to be speaking out on these things, but I guess I can see how would've been a big deal for a reasonably high profile band ca. 1980 to do so. Without the time and context, you could just as easily be talking about Pearl Jam. And, I guess, when I was 13 I felt the same about them.

And for what it's worth, I recognize the influence that the Clash has had on some bands I really love like The Minutemen, Fugazi, and probably several others, both ideologically and musically.

Indie Hipster Elitist Snobs

Like I said:

I felt the same way about REM and U2 in 1987 (12 years old)

This thread was a "set her up, knock her down" for you anyways, Steve.

Ha! I figured since I hadn't been posting much you were dangling a carrot.

Steve

Yepper...straight outta my "Billboard Top 40 Hits" book :

It hit #23 during its 7 week Top 40 chart run that began in late April, 1980.

Their only other Top 40 hit was "Casbah" , which hit #8 two & a half years later.