Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 

Board index : Music Talk : Rock/Pop

Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: is america hypocritical with sports hooliganism?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:03 pm 
Offline
Troubador
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:23 pm
Posts: 3742
this is an opinion editorial, and should be treated as such.

source

Blinkered America is already among the thugs

They like to glamorise European soccer hooligans, but nobody in US sports seems to realise that they've got a homegrown problem of their own, argues Steven Wells

The original premise for this article was to wander around Philadelphia on the day that the hated Dallas Cowboys gridiron team came to town, verbally assaulting Texans. "Who are ya?" and "Where's ya top boyz, zen?" I'd yell until my antics were noticed by Eagles hooligans who would initiate me into their "crew" - and thus start me on a journey of violence, homo-erotic male bonding and - ultimately - self-discovery. A bit like Bill Buford's Among the Thugs or that film Green Street. Only in reverse.

It didn't work out like that - not least because nobody walks around Philadelphia wearing Dallas colours. Ever. Nobody, not even a Texan, would be that insane. And that might in turn explain why I couldn't find a single hooligan - not just in Philadelphia but anywhere in the United States of America.

That's the wonder of American sports. There are fistfights, showers of beer (and faeces, canned dog food and coins), portable toilets kicked over with opposition fans inside them, knifings, deafening verbal abuse, full-scale riots, cars set alight, disabled fans stripped and their clothing destroyed, players puking because they've breathed in the pepper spray used by police to dissuade two sets of fans from kicking the sweet bejesus out of each other - and not a single hooligan in sight. Amazing when you think about it.

But first, here's a few brief extracts from America's ongoing and ever growing fascination with "soccer" hooliganism.

"We all know that in Europe you're not really considered a sports fan until you've been crushed to death against a chain-link fence," chuckles US TV satirist Steven Colbert.

"I just came from a soccer game, We got destroyed," says a beat-up looking dude in the Metro newspaper strip Girls & Sports.
"That must have been a pretty physical game," says a friend.
"Actually," says the severely bruised dude, "I was in the stands." Ba-dum-tish! (That same issue carried a 60-word article about how the city of Boston paid $5.1m to the parents of a female student killed by police during the riot that followed the Red Sox winning baseball's World Series in 2004.)

In August I saw Chelsea play Milan in Giants Stadium, New Jersey. As is usual when the soccer superpowers come to town, the atmosphere was carnivalesque. There were Chelsea and Milan, Poland, Portugal and England shirts with nobody so much as exchanging a dirty look.

Compare that to an incident at a 1980s Philadelphia Eagles game (as recounted in Jere Longman's new book about the Eagles, If Football's A Religion, Why Don't We Have A Prayer?). Two Philadelphia fans assist a fan in a wheelchair to the top of a steep ramp. They notice that he's wearing a Dallas shirt, so they turn him round and say: "Take off the jersey or you're going for a ride." The terrified Cowboy strips off his shirt - and the Eagles fans rip it to shreds.

Meanwhile, back at Giants Stadium, things do indeed turn nasty, but it's nothing to do with soccer. On the concourse, a tiny New York Giants gridiron fan spots a giant in a Phialdelphia Eagles shirt and goes nuts. "Eagles suck! How many Super Bowls you won? Huh, huh?" he yaps, spraying beer-spit everywhere, standing on tip-toes and prodding the big guy hard in the chest. The soccer fans part on either side of the increasingly violent bickering.

There's not much soul-searching about sports hooliganism within the US - and what little there is tends to focus on the behaviour of African-American basketball players rather than predominantly white football fans. For no matter how many college games end in drunken mob violence (as many do), no matter how many American city centres see running battles between sports fans and riot police, the US sports media continues to present hooliganism as something utterly un-American. (This blinkered provincialism has parallels with the 1996 decision by the US State Department to "red flag" parts of south London as no-go areas for American tourists, claiming that Millwall was as dangerous as Guatemala - which, at the time, was overrun by right-wing death squads.)

When it comes to hooliganism, the US media really is the pot calling the kettle black. Riots at US sports events occur far more frequently than they do in the UK. And yet, in American popular culture, the "hooligan" is almost without exception portrayed as a soccer fan (and nearly always as English).

Which might explain the success in the US of the movie Green Street. This, as I'm sure you know, is the story of how American Frodo Baggins is taught how to beat up idiots by a Brad Pitt lookalike West Ham hoolie with the worst cockney accent since Sir John Gielgud played Arthur Mullard in the Young Vic's disastrous 1991 stage adaptation of Yus My Dear. The US reviews of Green Street read like anthropological essays - discussions of a curious and disturbing phenomenon so utterly alien to the American way of life that it can only be understood as a quirky custom pursued by distant barbarians.

Typical of this world-view is an article by Mickey Charles on sportsnetwork.com. He starts with an overview of US sports rowdiness: "There are riots in the streets after a championship comes to town in any sport. Looting, burning cars, terrorising women and ripping their clothes off as part of the ceremony seems to have reached obscene levels ..."

But he then concludes that this is no big deal compared to the psycho-antics of those crazy Europeans. "In England ... the fans rushing on to the field don't want to embrace the players. They are carrying knotted ropes used historically for lynching, rocks, beer bottles poised to be thrown and whatever else is not nailed down. Frenzied followers of one team chase down those of the opponents, not to congratulate for a good effort, but to dismember."

The ill-informed double standard would be breathtaking if it weren't so commonplace. OK, so US sports has no equivalent of the Lazio Ultras or the ICF. But try wearing a Dallas jersey into the Eagles' "Nest of Death". Actually, don't. In 1997, Veterans stadium - the Eagles' old stomping ground - had a fully functional court inserted into its basement after a game against San Francisco saw an estimated 60 fights. The judge, who actually heard cases during the game, was seldom less than fully employed.

Things haven't been improved by the Eagles' move to their new stadium. Last year's NFC Divisional play-off game against the Minnesota Vikings saw an immense number of scraps. Vikings fan Joe Liwienski had earlier attended the much publicised "basketbrawl' game in Michigan, where Indiana Pacers basketball players shamefully rucked with Detroit Pistons fans in the stands. "This was 10 times worse," he said.

"The European hooligan thing is really overdone by the US media - it's much worse here," admits Philly sports fan Al Petrillo. "Eagles games are out of control. It's like a rite of passage, you get shit-faced drunk and out of control. The FU's start flying and then the fists start flying. There was this guy, an old guy in Redskins attire, maybe in his sixties. They roughed him up, broke his leg and sent him back to Washington."

Petrillo has also worked security at Philadelphia Flyers ice hockey games where, he claims, violence is just as rife. "Especially in the play-offs. There's fights at every game. There was this guy in a [New Jersey] Devils jersey, just sat there minding his own business. A Flyers fan walked past him then just turned around and just beat the piss out of him."

A fan of English soccer, Petrillo has attended games at Highbury and Stamford Bridge. "I didn't see anything, not a thing - zero fistfights. I even saw the coach with the opposition team arrive - nothing, no banging on the sides, nothing. In the streets before, during, after the game - I felt completely 100% safe and secure."

Meanwhile, back in Philadelphia, the clash with hated rivals Dallas is hyped in the local press - but no mention is made of hooliganism. Which is odd if only because of this tie's history. In 1981, the Eagles faithful bombarded the visiting Dallas team with snowballs - some of which allegedly contained batteries. Ex-Philadelphia mayor and current Pennsylvania State governor (and fanatical Eagles fan) Ed Rendell is widely believed to have thrown the (battery-free) snowball that smacked the Dallas coach in the head - a story that Rendell has always denied but which has done nothing to damage his electability. In 1968, Eagles fans even pelted Santa Claus with snowballs - an incident that is invariably quoted when out-of-towners try to paint Philadelphia as the NFL's equivalent of Millwall. Which, of course, they frequently do.

"The stadium is beyond civilisation," a Vikings fan told a local paper, before going on to compare the Eagles fans to the werewolves in the movie Wolfen. The Atlanta Falcons coach advised fans to dress only in green, otherwise "they'll get the shit beat out of them. They might be throwing batteries at us. They might be dumping dog shit on us," he told reporters. "It's going to be awesome".

"I have never seen a more classless, vulgar, belligerent group of jack-asses in my entire life," wrote Dolphins fan Brian Fien after 20,000 "screaming green morons" visited Miami. The reputation of the Eagles fans is so bad that, when they failed to boo a little blind boy with cerebral palsy when he faltered while singing the national anthem during a brutal snowstorm, they were congratulated by ESPN.com.

"We thrive on the fact that everybody can't stand us," Eagles fan Shaun Young told Jere Longman. "We're a bunch of filthy, dirty, nasty, drinking bums. In a sense we take pride in that. We don't want you here. We want you to be afraid to come."

Rich Burg, press officer for the Philadelphia Eagles was very concerned by this article. He refused Guardian Unlimited access to the game against the Dallas Cowboys ("we do not provide credentials for media to access our fans inside the stadium") and suggested that we write the article from the car park.

Sour grapes? Maybe. But at an Eagles game in 2002, reporters were dragged out of the stands by security for daring to talk to the fans. Which all suggests that the Eagles press office might be ashamed of fans like Shaun - the guys who pay their wages. Not that they should be. Shaun's not a hooligan. And neither are (most of) his fellow Eagles fanatics. But then neither are most English "soccer" fans. Honest.

Of course, that depends on how you define "hooligan". But sadly there's no national debate about hooliganism in the US press. There's no discussion about the wisdom of selling alcohol inside stadiums or of letting home and away fans sit together. Nobody in US sports seems to even realise that they've got a long-term, deeply rooted and entirely homegrown hooligan problem.

Whenever American football fans riot or ice hockey fans beat the hell out of one another, whenever the supporters of basketball or baseball teams go on a cop-taunting, car-torching, window-smashing victory spree, the violence is invariably treated as a local disturbance or an historical anomaly. And whenever college football fans engage in riotous behaviour that would be considered a national scandal if it happened in Britain (as they frequently do), no one seems terribly inclined to call it hooliganism.

Meanwhile lazy US satirists compare rioting French Islamic youth to soccer hooligans, Bucky the monkey-hating cat in the nationally syndicated Get Fuzzy strip raises a chuckle by dressing up as a Hartlepool FC "English hooligan", and the Simpsons scriptwriters seem unable to mention soccer without inserting a gag about how the sport turns its supporters into mindless thugs.

The truth is that both Bill Buford and Frodo Baggins could have stayed at home to get their slumming hoolie kicks.

Meantime, I think it's time for the pot to shut the fuck up.

---------------

the writer does unfairly use the philadelphia example too much, so much that its the main buttress of his arguement, but i think he makes some valid points.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:08 pm 
Offline
Alcoholic National Treasure

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:12 pm
Posts: 17155
load of shit. i've never seen violence at a philly game that wasn't between 2 philly fans that were drink and spilling beer on each other. louness, verbal abuse, ys. but violence? no. Pittsburgh or Clevelnad is more likely in that regard, I think. we save our vitriol for santa and michael irving.

_________________
Are you kidding? I have no talents. Nothing. I was very well educated to be an idiot. And I was a very good student.


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:08 pm 
Offline
Go Platinum
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:13 pm
Posts: 9306
Location: New York
You know, I don't usually care about your so many anti-American threads, but you're starting to get a little annoying now.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:09 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:38 pm
Posts: 10237
Location: Hill
We in fact don't make anything of soccer houligans, because we don't care about soccer.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:12 pm 
Offline
Troubador
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:23 pm
Posts: 3742
OPA_SaidTheGreek Wrote:
You know, I don't usually care about your so many anti-American threads, but you're starting to get a little annoying now.


then ignore me.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:13 pm 
Offline
Go Platinum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:32 pm
Posts: 8283
Location: viewing the fall....
If I ever catch you at an LSU football game, I'm gonna beat you senseless.

_________________
because you're empty, and I'm empty

Cotton Wrote:
I'd probably just drink myself to death. More so, I mean.


"Hey Judas. I know you've made a grave mistake.
Hey Peter. You've been pretty sweet since Easter break."


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:24 pm 
Offline
Go Platinum

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:38 pm
Posts: 7979
something i think is also a valid point is that the incidents that are brought up are in either playoff atmospheres or intense rivalries. i've been to plenty of philadelphia sporting events and only once saw more than one fight during a regular season game (cubs vs phillies, opening day 1993). the playoffs are just different, i guess. and the fights i have seen are between amazingly drunk superfans.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:49 pm 
Offline
Go Platinum
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:37 pm
Posts: 8889
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
The United States is nowhere near Latin America and Europe when it comes to sports related violence. We have yet to had a need to create Hooligan laws that prevent any major sports team fans or Universities fans from flying to other states or countries. I didn't read that entire article, but I don't recall any major riot that resulted in multiple deaths or require national troops to become involved in ending a riot. There is no need for any city or University to create a police zone around a stadium that prevents hooligans from causing violence outside a stadium.
This has all happened in either Latin America or Europe. I believe Germany is planning on creating the police zones for the World Cup as they did before their match with England last year.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:44 pm 
Offline
Go Platinum
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:51 am
Posts: 6327
I wish someone would kick the shit out Steven Wells. I don't really care if it's a Philly fan or a Chelsea hooligan just as long as it gets done.

_________________
He has arrived, the mountebank from Bohemia, he has arrived, preceded by his reputation.
Evil Dr. K "The Jimmy McNulty of Payment Protection Insurance"


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:45 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:47 am
Posts: 13881
Location: parts unknown
HaqDiesel Wrote:
We in fact don't make anything of soccer houligans, because we don't care about soccer.

_________________
http://www.geminicrow.com


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:46 pm 
Offline
The Obner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:48 pm
Posts: 4479
Isn't this article more of a kick in the face to European sports fans? I thought they prided themselves on being hooligans. That's like telling George Bush that Canada is more warmongering than the US.

_________________
[img]https://i.imgur.com/OV6GpTD.jpg[/img]


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:48 pm 
Offline
Go Platinum

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:26 pm
Posts: 6459
I've worn O's gear (caps, jerseys) to the bleachers at Yankee stadium, the worst that happened was people threw either money (mostly quarters) or beer at me.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:48 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 10198
god, get that horrible horrible horrible writer out of my city and back accross the pond.

he ruined my favorite weekly paper.

_________________
http://www.cdbaby.com/fishstick2


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:49 pm 
Offline
May contain Jesus.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:43 pm
Posts: 12275
Location: The Already, Not Yet.
Yeah no way the magnitude of fights break out. I think you'd be hard-pressed to dig up a recent all-out battle royale between rivalry fans. The Pacers incident...heh, that was just wacky for anybody. I could care less. I pay no attention it. I doubt most americans dislike soccer or don't follow it due to the "violence" and most americans would probably associate the word "hooligan" with the snl sketch than actual events.

_________________
It's Baltimore, gentlemen; the gods will not save you.

Baltimore is a town where everyone thinks they’re normal, but they’re totally insane. In New York, they think they’re crazy, but they’re perfectly normal. --John Waters
Image


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:51 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 10198
Flying Rabbit Wrote:
Yeah no way the magnitude of fights break out. I think you'd be hard-pressed to dig up a recent all-out battle royale between rivalry fans. The Pacers incident...heh, that was just wacky for anybody. I could care less. I pay no attention it. I doubt most americans dislike soccer or don't follow it due to the "violence" and most americans would probably associate the word "hooligan" with the snl sketch than actual events.


violence is pretty far down the list of why Americans don't care about soccer.
not being good at it is very high on the list.

_________________
http://www.cdbaby.com/fishstick2


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:51 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 10198
actually, sponsors not knowing how to make money of it and then teaching us to love it is probably the biggest reason.

_________________
http://www.cdbaby.com/fishstick2


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:08 pm 
Offline
Alcoholic National Treasure

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:12 pm
Posts: 17155
jewels santana Wrote:
actually, sponsors not knowing how to make money of it and then teaching us to love it is probably the biggest reason.


i thought it was because there's not enough expensive equipment to sell.

_________________
Are you kidding? I have no talents. Nothing. I was very well educated to be an idiot. And I was a very good student.


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:08 pm 
Offline
May contain Jesus.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:43 pm
Posts: 12275
Location: The Already, Not Yet.
jewels santana Wrote:
Flying Rabbit Wrote:
Yeah no way the magnitude of fights break out. I think you'd be hard-pressed to dig up a recent all-out battle royale between rivalry fans. The Pacers incident...heh, that was just wacky for anybody. I could care less. I pay no attention it. I doubt most americans dislike soccer or don't follow it due to the "violence" and most americans would probably associate the word "hooligan" with the snl sketch than actual events.


violence is pretty far down the list of why Americans don't care about soccer.
not being good at it is very high on the list.


Oh exactly thats what I said. Its why hockey isn't bigger, or rugby or polo for that matter. In America we're pretty close-minded to new sports to come in and take us for an interest. I'm also of the mind that Americans (I'm using this country because, well, I'm a resident), won't like a sport unless they were exposed to it and played it as a kid. That's why baseball, football, and basketball reign. Soccer is being played more and more by kids so who knows in the future.

_________________
It's Baltimore, gentlemen; the gods will not save you.

Baltimore is a town where everyone thinks they’re normal, but they’re totally insane. In New York, they think they’re crazy, but they’re perfectly normal. --John Waters
Image


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:14 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 10198
Flying Rabbit Wrote:
jewels santana Wrote:
Flying Rabbit Wrote:
Yeah no way the magnitude of fights break out. I think you'd be hard-pressed to dig up a recent all-out battle royale between rivalry fans. The Pacers incident...heh, that was just wacky for anybody. I could care less. I pay no attention it. I doubt most americans dislike soccer or don't follow it due to the "violence" and most americans would probably associate the word "hooligan" with the snl sketch than actual events.


violence is pretty far down the list of why Americans don't care about soccer.
not being good at it is very high on the list.


Oh exactly thats what I said. Its why hockey isn't bigger, or rugby or polo for that matter. In America we're pretty close-minded to new sports to come in and take us for an interest. I'm also of the mind that Americans (I'm using this country because, well, I'm a resident), won't like a sport unless they were exposed to it and played it as a kid. That's why baseball, football, and basketball reign. Soccer is being played more and more by kids so who knows in the future.


i was agreeing with you before.
but i will disagree that soccer will catch on because people play it.

i think more kinds have played soccer than football or hockey for years (i myself play soccer, but dont' watch it. I never played football, but i never miss a sunday)

i think the fact that our leauge isn't the best in the world keeps us from caring.

_________________
http://www.cdbaby.com/fishstick2


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:20 pm 
Offline
May contain Jesus.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:43 pm
Posts: 12275
Location: The Already, Not Yet.
Certainly true, on the league.

How then do you explain why hockey is huge in say, Minnesota as opposed to Los Angeles?

_________________
It's Baltimore, gentlemen; the gods will not save you.

Baltimore is a town where everyone thinks they’re normal, but they’re totally insane. In New York, they think they’re crazy, but they’re perfectly normal. --John Waters
Image


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:23 pm 
Offline
Troubador
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:23 pm
Posts: 3742
actually, the us national team is quite good. they are ranked 8th in the world right now according to fifa world rankings, and in the last world cup they finished second in their group, beating portugal (which is a huge deal) and lost to germany in the quarterfinals in a very close game. almost all of the players that play for the national team come from the mls, so that should give you an indication of the quality of the players and the game as a whole.


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:23 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 10198
Flying Rabbit Wrote:
Certainly true, on the league.

How then do you explain why hockey is huge in say, Minnesota as opposed to Los Angeles?


how do you explain how Hockey is huge in Philadlephia?
i can't.

_________________
http://www.cdbaby.com/fishstick2


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:25 pm 
Offline
frostingspoon

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 10198
Northern Soul Wrote:
actually, the us national team is quite good. they are ranked 8th in the world right now according to fifa world rankings, and in the last world cup they finished second in their group, beating portugal (which is a huge deal) and lost to germany in the quarterfinals in a very close game. almost all of the players that play for the national team come from the mls, so that should give you an indication of the quality of the players and the game as a whole.


i think if the national team won a world cup that would do a (pun) world of a good to make the states care about Soccer. And Freddy Adu become a real star woudl help too.

i personally would like to care about soccer, but my city doesn't have a team and i can't bring myself to sit and watch the games.

_________________
http://www.cdbaby.com/fishstick2


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:34 pm 
Offline
Bedroom Demos
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 7:50 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Georgia
Hockey is arguably the most violent of the popular sports in America. I've been to lots of NHL hockey games in different arenas around the country and am always impressed at the tolerance of hockey fans to accept those wearing opponent jerseys or even jerseys from other nations. They seem to recognize that it's the contest that's important and not where you're from or who you support.

I spent my teenage years in England and had the shit kicked out of me for wearing my home team's colors and making the mistake of entering our home stadium at the wrong end of the building. I have never experienced that kind of mindless rage in American sports arenas.
If unemployment and social unrest rise to the levels of England in the 70's or Venezuela we may start to see more of this kind of acting out.

It's more likely these days for there to be violence in America carried out by opposing political or religous groups than by football fans.

Are you a Roe or a Wade?

Give me your "I'm Pro Life" t-shirt or I'll kick your teeth in!

_________________
"I'm not going to say anything one way or another, other than to say there is a plea agreement,"


Back to top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:54 pm 
Offline
May contain Jesus.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:43 pm
Posts: 12275
Location: The Already, Not Yet.
jewels santana Wrote:
Flying Rabbit Wrote:
Certainly true, on the league.

How then do you explain why hockey is huge in say, Minnesota as opposed to Los Angeles?


how do you explain how Hockey is huge in Philadlephia?
i can't.


did you watch MNF? :D

_________________
It's Baltimore, gentlemen; the gods will not save you.

Baltimore is a town where everyone thinks they’re normal, but they’re totally insane. In New York, they think they’re crazy, but they’re perfectly normal. --John Waters
Image


Back to top
 Profile WWW 
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 

Board index : Music Talk : Rock/Pop

Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Style by Midnight Phoenix & N.Design Studio
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.