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Who is Tookie Williams backhanding right now?
Jesus 53%  53%  [ 9 ]
Satan 47%  47%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 17
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:33 am 
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harry Wrote:
Men of color are disproportionately sentenced to death. Even if you believe that the state has the right to kill humans (something that is considered barbaric in most western post-industrial societies), that statistically if a black man and white man are both convicted of the same crime, the black man is much more likely to be setenced to death, is absurd and unconstitutional.

Williams is with the Lord, who is infinite in His mercy. Lux perpetua.

(soundtack Bones, Thugs, and Harmony...)


Jesse Jackson could not be reached for comment.

Personally, I believe there is a conspiracy to arrest as many black folk as possible so they can be to put to death. How do I know this? Minister Farrakan says the mothership told him so. Tookie is probably up there on the spaceship orbiting earth..


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:34 am 
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who is this sensei? tom arico found us?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:37 am 
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[quote="albion"]If killing another human being is a crime, then why should the state be allowed to do it? I think life in prison is a far more torturous punishment (for most) than the "humane" death by lethal injection.[/quote]

Tell that to the family of person murdered by the slug on death row.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:39 am 
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[quote="rpartridgeinapeartree74"]who is this sensei? tom arico found us?[/quote]
Paranoid about something?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:40 am 
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sensei Wrote:
rpartridgeinapeartree74 Wrote:
who is this sensei? tom arico found us?

Paranoid about something?


no - I really can't take anyone that seriously who can't use the quote function.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:42 am 
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Whatever..


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:59 am 
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I should've known there'd be one or two people that would've gotten defensive over my remarks about those detached from reality.

For all we know, Farrakan could be right: there probably is a mothership hovering over Earth full of brothers.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:02 am 
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10 PAGES HERE WE COME

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:29 am 
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thrillhouse Wrote:
the death penalty is fucked up y'all


There's surprising (and surprisingly sad) support for it here if i remember


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:52 am 
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harry Wrote:
Men of color are disproportionately sentenced to death. Even if you believe that the state has the right to kill humans (something that is considered barbaric in most western post-industrial societies), that statistically if a black man and white man are both convicted of the same crime, the black man is much more likely to be sentenced to death, is absurd and unconstitutional.


Here's a question on this for harry or any others who wish to intelligently chime in:

Preface: Keep in mind that I am primarily against the Death Penalty, so I'm not looking to justify or defend my position, just try to scrape away at some of the common political claims. I could accept the Death Penalty in the case of serial or spree killers, e.g. Ted Bundy, Andrew Cunanan, David Berkowitz. Tookie would narrowly fit under this guideline, but most likely because he got picked up.

The Question: How much of the racial disparity in death penalty rates can be attributed to prosecutorial sentencing habits? For instance, most violent crime and black on black crime in Maryland takes place in Baltimore City and Prince George's County. Prosectutors in these two jurisdictions are less likely to invoke the death penalty. Prosecutors in Baltimore & PG Co. are much more likely to be black and Democrat. I'm not judging racial or political motivations for their tendencies, but I think it would be disingenous to assume there were no correlation.

Baltimore County, which is Maryland's third most populous county and surrounds but does not include Baltimore City, is 75% white and accounts for 2/3 of the executions in Maryland. I don't have numbers but it wouldn't be the least bit surprising if most of those cases were black on white crime.

Now, it is politically expedient for many office seekers to cite this as evidence that the death penalty is racist in application, and it is equally as expedient for Baltimore County district attorneys to tout their hard-nosed record against crime. But if every potential capital case in every jurisdiction were tried as such, how would the numbers play out? How would the black on black murders from Baltimore City and PG County affect statistics? At the very least, it should bring them closer together.

If it does bring those numbers much closer together, it may demonstrate that race isn't so much a determining factor; however, that does not eliminate economic and social class, which I feel is a stronger reason against executions. I also agree that race has a strong influence on economic and social class, but I'm not entirely sold that race is the stronger determining factor.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:36 am 
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It's a complicated issue for sure, I tend towards being against the death penalty overall. But I also see the need for retribution for victims of violent crime. In Canada, the most notorious criminal is serial killer/rapist Paul Bernardo. If anyone was worthy of the death penalty, it would be this guy. He literally tortured and ripped apart two teenage girls and raped upwards of 40. Since there's no death penalty, he spends 23.5 hours a day in a five-foot by eight-foot cell where he will remain for the rest of his life. I think that's all right in lieu of death. I don't know Tookie's daily routine, but if it was that restrictive, then maybe there would be more support for alternatives to the capital punishment. I'd throw in a little hard labour as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:45 am 
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Does anyone know the average cost of maintaining a death row / life imprisoned convict?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:53 am 
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Au'Tannybaum Wrote:
Does anyone know the average cost of maintaining a death row / life imprisoned convict?


Not as much as all the money spent on the appeals process in a capital case.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:12 pm 
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I don't have a problem with captial punishment.

From a moral/philosophical standpoint, I see little difference between the state's termination of the convict's life and the abolition of all of the convict's freedoms.

From a practical standpoint, I recognize that life in prison is less of a punishment than death. This is borne out by all of the inmates who fight execution in order to preserve their life, albeit behind bars.

I think a nation or state has the right to impose dire penalties for crimes. It follows, that I have no problem with that state imposing it's prescribed punishments. This applies to the U.S for capital murder, it applies to Indonesia for drug trafficking.

I find that when a state prescribes a punishment for a crime and then fails to impose said punishment it weakens the laws of that nation/state.

Bear in mind, none of the above has anything to do with race, gender, or any other demographic consideration. In fact, the disparity referenced in other posts is caused in large part because of the weakening of the law by states that do not impose the prescribed punishment.

When nations/states so weaken themselves, they can be influenced. That infuence is driven by power and/or wealth. Power and wealth are not distributed impartially nor equally. This, I believe, is the root of the disparity in capital sentencing, at least in the United States.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Au'Tannybaum Wrote:
Does anyone know the average cost of maintaining a death row / life imprisoned convict?


Not as much as all the money spent on the appeals process in a capital case.


I did research on this in high school and don't remember most of it. It was a debate and I think I just made fun of one of the kids for being a mexican, but I think it scaled to the point of being somewhat moot.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:47 pm 
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i just don't see how the pro-death people have a leg to stand on.

the additional punnishment over lifelong incarceration is barbaric, plain and simple. if it's about revenge for the victim's family or whomever, then why not do it up proper and tie the convict up and let the family have at him with a machine gun? the state doesn't have to be an institution that is influenced by the darkest human emotions. it should aspire to be bigger than that.

the deterrant theory is absurd.

what else is there?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:49 pm 
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thrillhouse Wrote:
what else is there?


Retribution

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:50 pm 
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thrillhouse Wrote:

the additional punnishment over lifelong incarceration is barbaric

the deterrant theory is absurd.


Stated as fact...nice.

Do you think a lot of Australians are lining up to smuggle drugs in Indonesia now?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:02 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
harry Wrote:
Men of color are disproportionately sentenced to death. Even if you believe that the state has the right to kill humans (something that is considered barbaric in most western post-industrial societies), that statistically if a black man and white man are both convicted of the same crime, the black man is much more likely to be sentenced to death, is absurd and unconstitutional.


Here's a question on this for harry or any others who wish to intelligently chime in:

Preface: Keep in mind that I am primarily against the Death Penalty, so I'm not looking to justify or defend my position, just try to scrape away at some of the common political claims. I could accept the Death Penalty in the case of serial or spree killers, e.g. Ted Bundy, Andrew Cunanan, David Berkowitz. Tookie would narrowly fit under this guideline, but most likely because he got picked up.

The Question: How much of the racial disparity in death penalty rates can be attributed to prosecutorial sentencing habits?

... also agree that race has a strong influence on economic and social class, but I'm not entirely sold that race is the stronger determining factor.


Thoughtful question EF. Yes, class absolutely is the nexus in which race determines that capital punishment is not applied equally under the rule of law. This is my point.

I oppose capital punishment for ehtical, moral reasons... I oppose it because it contributes to a brutalized and brutalizing society. The addiction to retribution is of the same substance with street thugs "doing crime" and hitting back gang opponents. Grown from the same dark root.

But given that, if you factor in race and class (and it is very complex and probably impossible to determine which has more influence), the death penalty is not applied equally. It is a hobbled application of the rule of law... andi in that sense lawless.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:04 pm 
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Sen.LooGAR'sCrunkmas Wrote:
thrillhouse Wrote:
what else is there?


Retribution


And that's the tooth.

It generally costs a lot more to kill someone "humanely" (gas chamber, injection, chair) than to keep them in jail for life.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:07 pm 
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Sen.LooGAR'sCrunkmas Wrote:
thrillhouse Wrote:
what else is there?


Retribution


Exactly.


I support the Death Penalty for the same reason as I support Euthanasia and Abortion---if you believe in evolution than you understand that sometimes you end up on the short end of the stack. A "Brutal Darwinian Crunch" I believe is how Dr. Thompson phrased it. Or "Play Pussy, Get Fucked" as Scotty D would say.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:14 pm 
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