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 Post subject: NMR: Who on Obner feels sympathy for homeless people?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:41 am 
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just wondering.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:42 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:44 am 
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my already stated views:

if they choose to be homeless, that's fine, but the last thing they need to do is beg for the pity of the public. if you're going to be homeless then pick a spot and stay there and don't beg for a few cents everytime someone walks by. i'm positive that they are able of getting a satisfactory job, especially in richmond. i see job opportunities all the time. the only thing that homeless people are successful at is trying to make people feel bad for them.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:48 am 
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It's not foolproof, but generally trying to determine why someone is homeless from the peanut gallery is a lot like trying to determine why someone committed suicide.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:54 am 
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what about those staying in shelters? don't you feel any sympathy for them, the ones who stay in shelters and try to get jobs but get turned down?
what about the ones who had something absolutely devastating put them in that position? or if they just have an abusive problem whether it be to people surrounding them or themselves in terms of controlled substances? sure that's a problem a program may fix, but once they got out of control maybe they had nobody to help them get there, but they only were cast aside to become what they are today? if you become very dependent on something i think you need help becoming your own person again, and if you don't get that help and you're thrown out with nothing to your name, how can you really gather the courage and strength to help yourself then, when you couldn't even do it with someone or something to guide you along before?
i think pride may be a big problem, not really being able to come to terms with the fact that you need help, or for some it may be laziness, but i don't think that's all that it is because i think if you're living outdoors in the freezing cold and terrible heat depending on the seasons, that's not something you would just withstand out of sheer laziness.
there is something obviously wrong with a person to make them pitiful enough to live on the street. it may be a drug problem, they may be alcoholics, they may be mentally handicapped. there is a man near my school in the afternoon that is mentally handicapped and he is homeless. it really makes me sad to see him out there, but then again if he knows to stand on the street and see if he can get money i guess he should know he could get a job whether he has a mental problem or not.

there are a lot of grey areas in this issue, and i just think it's really sad that people let their lives get like this, or to see people be put in these situations. it's not always a persons fault.

the men blue milk and i see in richmond have most likely put themselves in the place they are in, but i know not everyone has.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:58 am 
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I've put myself into plenty of positions I couldn't escape without outside help, but I've been lucky enough that none of those unfortunate circumstances involved sleeping outside nor shitting on anyone's steps.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:04 am 
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Blue Milk Wrote:
my already stated views:

if they choose to be homeless, that's fine, but the last thing they need to do is beg for the pity of the public. if you're going to be homeless then pick a spot and stay there and don't beg for a few cents everytime someone walks by. i'm positive that they are able of getting a satisfactory job, especially in richmond. i see job opportunities all the time. the only thing that homeless people are successful at is trying to make people feel bad for them.


Don't you think that there is a difference between pan-handling and being homeless?

Many homeless people, men in particular, suffer from mental disorders. Essentially, they are forgotten people. Their situation is often times perpetuated because people mindlessly just hand them some change or a couple dollars which will never get them anywhere. Someone has to take the time to help a "bum" which I assume we are talking about, and not someone who simply does not have a home.

It's not always just a choice. Thinking it's all about choice is reducing all exterior factors to nothing. Thinking in such a way is narrow in scope and a sweeping generalization. I have sympathy, just like most people do, on the people who have had and are still experiencing tough lives. Lives a lot tougher than working for my asshole boss or being 26 and living with my parents. Each decision and event in someone's life is linked to the next, generally speaking, and to dismiss a group because you think that they choose to be that way is denying that fact that they may have had experiences in life, like being a horribly cared for Vietnam vet or addictions or being born into destitute families, etc. that influence where they are now.

Sure, some homeless people may have decided that life is just easier begging for money. However, even those people deserve the chance for something better. I applaud anyone who takes the time to work with men and women in this situation. Those on this board who are social workers or who have done so in the past will tell you that life is not simply one decision but it is a culmination of decisions that sometimes land you in jail, in a nice school, dead, as the next Steven Spielberg, or as your average white hates his job but has 2.5 kids and a pickett fence male. [sorry for the predisposition toward men in this post -- obviously I do not believe that a woman can become a white male based on a culmination of decisions. Although possible, it's not what I am trying to communicate. :) ]

Everyone deserves a chance to be heard, a chance to live better, forgiveness. Certainly they do not, at least ideally, deserve to be questioned by cops because they happen to be carrying around two trashbags with stuff in them on Christmas Eve (this happened today--in my small town), for example.

Some could say that the very thing that you think is reason to forget them and not have sympathy for them is what you are doing by claiming that it's just a choice. It's like you're saying that it's just easier to be mad at some homeless person asking you for money than to actually try and help the person or find out why they are where they are and how they got there. You've given up on them, and that's the easy thing to do. This way you can rant about how they are selfish and lazy, when ironically, your reasoning is kind of an example of how you're selfish and lazy.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:06 am 
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my brother is a perfect example of someone who needs serious help. he lives with my biological mother who pampers him like a baby. i don't know if i've talked about him before, he's the drug dealer/user who has been arrested many many times but he has never been sent to jail for over a month. when he went to jail he wrote letters saying he found god and was a changed man, but when he got back out he began dealing again, driving on a restricted license, breaking his restraining orders, dealing more drugs, getting caught with drugs in general, etc.
he needs help. major help, i'll admit i'm not a good person in the sense that i do enjoy smoking pot, so this is sort of a double standard... but he really has a problem whereas i am not dependent on a drug and he has been for the past 9 years of his life. he has made no attempts to go to rehab and clean himself up, even for the sake of his two children.
my biological mother will not help him, and my family has done everything we can to help him out but nothing worked.

people can't change once they have become so dependent on something else that they aren't themselves anymore. you have to take that part of their life away somehow, it's like getting an abortion, sort of.

i don't know, people need help. you always need someone there to fall back on, and even if they can't help you themselves they can help you get to someone who can. like the homeless shelters, like rehab, like buying a cheap suit from goodwill and giving you a shower at the YMCA so you look nice and can go on an interview and get a job. if you're so pathetic and miserable you might not have the courage to do it yourself. sometimes life takes so much out of you that you will lose that drive.


Last edited by cemeterypolka on Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:08 am 
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I feel sympathy for those who are homeless because of incredibly bad luck and/or unfortunate issues that truly are beyond their control (ex: serious mental illness unrelated to drug or alcohol abuse). I don't feel bad for those who, depite the support/intervention of friends and family, choose to let addictions spin out of control.

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Last edited by Natural Mike on Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:09 am 
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i feel awful. i promised this one homeless man i talk to regularly i'd buy him lunch for christmas. i PROMISE i will do it next week.
he's a very nice guy and i would really like to get the chance to hear about his situation if he's willing to talk about it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:12 am 
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Natural Mike Wrote:
...choose to let addictions spin out of control.


I am not sure that those two words can go in the sentence the way you said them. Choice and Addiction are rather opposed to each other. Not that choice becomes insignificant in someone's life during addiction, but the addiction is like the devil on the shoulder that is way bigger, way stronger, and a hell of a lot more tempting than the angel of choice telling you to stop.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:18 am 
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Hegel-oh's Wrote:
Natural Mike Wrote:
...choose to let addictions spin out of control.


I am not sure that those two words can go in the sentence the way you said them. Choice and Addiction are rather opposed to each other. Not that choice becomes insignificant in someone's life during addiction, but the addiction is like the devil on the shoulder that is way bigger, way stronger, and a hell of a lot more tempting than the angel of choice telling you to stop.



I think we're on the same page with this.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:21 am 
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I laughed at a homeless man today, but I wasn't laughing at his homelessness.

EDIT: Not AT him, just kind of at what he was doing.


Last edited by legonads on Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:22 am 
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cemeterypolka Wrote:
I think we're on the same page with this.



maybe you should drop that insensitive blue milk and become my woman.

two apologies

1. I realize that you're a decade younger than me and therefore a minor, thus rendering the above impossible in a legal sense

2. I didn't want to join the blue milk bashing, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to make the above comment.

no hard feelings? good.

back to bums...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:22 am 
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g Wrote:
I laughed at a homeless man today, but I wasn't laughing at his homelessness.


story?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:28 am 
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g Wrote:
I laughed at a homeless man today, but I wasn't laughing at his homelessness.

EDIT: Not AT him, just kind of at what he was doing.


I keep hearing of homeless people doing hilarious things in other cities. My friend went to California one summer a few years back and she told me all these strange stories about homeless men.

We have a great homeless lady who plays guitar for money, and in DC there was a very talented man who played the saxophone. That makes me think these were situations where their dreams didn't pan out in reality and get them far enough to live off of, but who knows. I like those kind of bums though, because they are earning their money. It's kind of like a job.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:29 am 
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This batshit crazy homeless guy in Baltimore was having a heated argument with himself last Sunday.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:31 am 
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Hegel-oh's Wrote:
g Wrote:
I laughed at a homeless man today, but I wasn't laughing at his homelessness.


story?


He's walking up and down the subway car. On his front and back he's got newspaper clippings about how the MTA isn't very friendly toward the blind and disabled. On his side he's carrying a little amp, and he's humming Christmas songs into a microphone. In between tunes, he's mumbling something, which, despite the microphone, can be barely understood. I make out a few words, and he seems to be going on about the rights of the disabled.

What I found funny was how the amp did not help him out at all. You'd think a man talking into a microphone in a small, cramped space would make some noise and be noticed.

Also, how'd he read those newspaper articles he's got on him? He's blind.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:31 am 
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Hegel-oh's Wrote:
Blue Milk Wrote:
my already stated views:

if they choose to be homeless, that's fine, but the last thing they need to do is beg for the pity of the public. if you're going to be homeless then pick a spot and stay there and don't beg for a few cents everytime someone walks by. i'm positive that they are able of getting a satisfactory job, especially in richmond. i see job opportunities all the time. the only thing that homeless people are successful at is trying to make people feel bad for them.


Don't you think that there is a difference between pan-handling and being homeless?



Maybe it's because I haven't traveled much outside of Richmond, but I have only ONE TIME seen a homeless person who WASN'T pan-handling.

Basically it comes down to how much you're going to give into the image that these people are putting out. Some people eat all of that shit up, and some don't. But when I see the SAME people damn people every single day/week/month/year laying on the street doing absolutely nothing with their lives, I can't make myself feel sorry for them. Please forgive me for feeling this way, since I'm obviously "very insensitive" (re: you're a pussy) for it.

I'm not saying every homeless person is some kind of selfish asshole, but the ones who don't do anything about it (which are usually the ones that people feel "bad" for) do not deserve any kind of pity. With some of the fucking idiots I work with, I'm pretty sure they could find a job somewhere.


Last edited by Verbal Intercourse on Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:32 am 
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Brings us back to the point that these people need outside help.

and I feel bad because I laugh at that stuff too, but in reality it's pretty depressing.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:33 am 
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cemeterypolka Wrote:
I keep hearing of homeless people doing hilarious things in other cities. My friend went to California one summer a few years back and she told me all these strange stories about homeless men.


San Fransico homeless people are the greatest. I saw this one-legged guy in a wheelchair get naked in a busy intersection and throw his one shoe at a car.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:35 am 
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My mom hates when I do things for homeless people, because she recognizes the fact that most have mental issues and have the capability to do something to me if I put myself in a compromising situation, which I try not to.
I think i'm going to talk to her and see if she'll help me out in trying to help out the homeless, because I think she'd feel better about me doing it with her there rather than alone.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:49 am 
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Hegel-oh's Wrote:
Natural Mike Wrote:
...choose to let addictions spin out of control.


I am not sure that those two words can go in the sentence the way you said them. Choice and Addiction are rather opposed to each other. Not that choice becomes insignificant in someone's life during addiction, but the addiction is like the devil on the shoulder that is way bigger, way stronger, and a hell of a lot more tempting than the angel of choice telling you to stop.


Good points, but there are occasional moments of sobriety in anyone's life. It's mosty the people who go through rehab and go right back to drugs or alcohol that I'm "calling out."

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:54 am 
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Blue Milk Wrote:
Maybe it's because I haven't traveled much outside of Richmond, but I have only ONE TIME seen a homeless person who WASN'T pan-handling.

Basically it comes down to how much you're going to give into the image that these people are putting out. Some people eat all of that shit up, and some don't. But when I see the SAME people damn people every single day/week/month/year laying on the street doing absolutely nothing with their lives, I can't make myself feel sorry for them. Please forgive me for feeling this way, since I'm obviously "very insensitive" (re: you're a pussy) for it.

I'm not saying every homeless person is some kind of selfish asshole, but the ones who don't do anything about it (which are usually the ones that people feel "bad" for) do not deserve any kind of pity. With some of the fucking idiots I work with, I'm pretty sure they could find a job somewhere.


First things first. Relax. I was not calling you a pussy--or did I misunderstand and you're calling me a pussy? My insensitivity comment to ms.polka was a joke. that's it.

Second. What is your definition of pan-handling. My definition is not anyone who begs for money, but i get the feeling that that is what you take it to mean?

Third. You shouldn't have to make yourself feel sorry for people. If you don't feel sorry for some, then you don't feel sorry for them. End it there. My issues, I guess, come from the apparent generalization in your original post about it all being a choice. I believe that this world, this country in particular, creates and promotes situations where people exploit every kind of inappropriate behaviour, like pan-handling when you don't need to be, or generally just taking advantage of people. However, there are many people that are not just exploiting the goodwill of humanity, as limited as it may be. Thank God that we are capable of learning discernment to separate the difference between the two kinds of people. I agree with you. It is hard to have any desire for the benefit of others when those others are taking advantage of people with good hearts and actually being lazy. But, the problem of homelessness and such is a much bigger issue than those people that do the exploitation.

I think the bigger issue, for me, is people that give money to the poor and end it there and do it to make themselves feel better. Like they are helping society by handing money to someone that most likely has a drug addiction or dependency, whether that person is truly homeless or not.

There is a song by The Be Good Tanyas with the lyrics: "we hover between apathy and compassion. And we fill all our days with so much distraction". At least that's a bit. And to me that is a much more serious issue than whether or not people are pan-handling or if they are sincerely seeking help.

Whenever in the situation to help a homeless person that asks for money to get some food, I try and tell them that I will take them to a place and buy them food rather than give them money because that way they won't take my 5 bucks and buy a couple 40's or use it for some other item that is not a basic need. Some have denied my offer. Others have taken it graciously. Some have tried to argue with me to just give them money and then eventually let me buy them food. That's one way I try to discern which type of "homeless" I am dealing with.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:56 am 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
This batshit crazy homeless guy in Baltimore was having a heated argument with himself last Sunday.


Dude, that's practically every other homeless person in Baltimore.

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