I know. That was an eye opener of how a congregation can corrupt religion and force you to believe ridiculous shit, but eventually I got really lazy and hated going to church, only went to see an old friend and we'd talk and not pay attention at all. I never prayed anymore, I let myself be and stopped stressing out and having anxiety problems over if what I was doing was right "in the eyes of god." I realized religion only made me feel bad, not like a better person like it's supposed to. I hate feeling inferior to something I will never truly know if it exists or not, I really highly doubt there is a big man floating around ruling over every inhabitant on this earth. Somehow religion has become comforting in terms of death though, that's the only time i'll consider god existing just because it's easier to handle funeral services thinking that the person is living on somewhere, even though in reality I know it's not true. Or in my mind I believe it is not. It's very far fetched, I don't want to get into the "politics" of the matter as of right now, though. It's just like you're entering a fantasy land by thinking that everything is better after death (still speaking of religion as an aid to happiness while dealing with post-death of someone you were affiliated with) while in reality I believe this is all we're going to live.. and it's a waste of human emotion and thoughts and brilliant ideas you may have to just use what you can fit into one lifetime, I don't know what i'm talking about anymore. I could go on and on, but I wouldn't make sense.
I just don't believe in god. The church made me hate church, I did try other churches don't get me wrong. I went back to the one before I got into the cult-esque church, and even went methodist for a while. Nothing worked. I didn't feel it anymore, I could tell I didn't believe it, and I sure as hell recognized I was talking to a wall while I prayed.
The bible is a nice story pushing values and good morals but it's something I honestly cannot take seriously at all.

Thanks for the explanation.

I don't like the "politics" of the matter, either, for what it's worth.

LOLtheist

im Sikh. and i like my religion. if anyone read the khalsa, it's very spiritual and wise.

i dont care for other religions nor do i think my religion is better than any other.

maybe there is a god maybe there isnt. i dont know i dont care. i like my religion because it gives me faith and confidence. and thats all that matters in the end. having faith, confidence, hell even happiness.

atheists are funny. i dont get their deal. but like i said, i dont care about the beliefs systems of others, and i wont try to convince them otherwise. i just think it's funny how you can autmatically assume there is no God, if there is no proof discounting that fact.

Wow. Amazing that so many people rang in on this, but then again it such a volatile subject that the more amazing thing is that no one really called out someone else.

To me, I believe that as a child, sunday school and the lessons were important to me and my morality. Thats a personal thing, obviously you may think otherwise. I do however believe that I base a lot of my actions off the so-called "golden rule". I was over at a friends house tonight, his dad was a religion teacher and he was asking me about religion. I said I was a "free agent". I think it is crazy to baptize children. They have no say in it, and even if you were baptized later (like myself), you were still essentially just going along with your parents and hoping for pizza hut after church.

Right now I feel like I am at a frame of mind where I can actively investigate various belief systems and decide for myself which I agree with and which I disagree with. For me personally, I think that the fact that I had such bad experiences within the church has skewed me as well, and while it is a broad generalization, I cannot get into it as hard as I try. My fiance is Catholic, but understanding and supportive of my endeavors to discover whatever there is out there. It's such a personal decision, and process.

Not me. To me, religion is just a contemporary version of superstition. I do have a problem with priests molesting children, but I have a problem with them as molestors more than anything else -- I don't attribute their actions to religion, for example. And yes, I do have a problem with, for example, hypocrites. But again, I hold that against them as hypocrites, not as religious people.

The main problem I have with contemporary interpretations of Christianity is that there's a god who is all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful, and allows this world to continue without the benefit of his knowledge or power. I know that the classic answer is that that is the gift of "free will", but I have a problem with the commandments dictating that we voluntarily relinquish our free will for blind faith (I.E. if we hold any other false gods before him, we go to hell). I just don't think an all-powerful god would require that.

I like Christ... i don't like Christianity. I like the bible... i don't like the Church. I like spirituality... i don't like religion. I like forgiveness... i don't like condemnation. I like praying... i don't like singing.

I am a leader and a teacher within my church and am becoming seen as a leader within a few other churches as well as my community. I don't like doctrine, i don't like evangelism, I just like to serve and be active.

The Church has been around a long time and its leaders have taken huge steps to keep the common man down. It's very politcal and always has been... i recognize that, but all the same i've met some really good people within my church and overall have had an incredible and growing experience. I know i'm one of the rare ones but for me, things turned out much better than they were before.

I think spirituality works much better on an individual basis. When viewed in relaion to the masses, it instantly becomes decisive and political. Whether or not we go to Hell has nothing to do if we sing in the choir or not. It has to deal with a personal aspect of forgiveness and love. If you're tormented in life nothing will change in the hereafter. Spirtuality is like an opiate for the soul, it gives comfort and relief... where you find that relief changes from person to person.

I can't speak for all of us obviously, but when I wake up every morning, I think about

1) my family
2) my friends
3) the contents of my refrigerator.

God just isn't part of my day. It just seems like something out of the Lord of the Rings whenever I hear about the God of the bible and so I treat him as I would treat any fictional character.

Now, assuming there was a God, would it really even matter to me? I mean, there are plenty of deists out there who think that the Creator doesn't interfere with the laws of nature. If that's the case, I'll simply focus on being a "good" person for the next 50-60 years and hope for the best on my death bed.

i toally agree with you which is why i tend to stray away from religious subjects.

MORE LIKE GAYTHIEST!!!!!1

yes. i am.

i refer to what i believe as "religious beliefs". I don't fully understand the idea of "I am spiritual, not religious". All humanity is spiritual, so I guess I need further explanation of what that means.

Aaron is right. You can't be active in a system of beliefs that is not just individually created without ritualistic practices, like praying, and therefore cannot escape being religious in that case.

I do believe, in Christianity, that there is a relationship. I beleive the relationship is important and you cannot maintain the relationship without the religious practices. So, one cannot separate religion and relationship, at least in terms of Christianity.

It also kind of bothers me when hypocrisy is used most often in referrence to Christians. As though only Christians can be hypocritical. Everyone is hypocritical, but it is somehow only important or only matters when a Christian says they believe one thing and then does the other.

Evangelism is tough because I don't believe that they way most try and evangelize will accomplish much. I have always felt that you can't prove faith and someone's personal experience with God to someone else. Someone has to experience it on their own in order to understand it. I am still trying to figure out the evangelism thing.

I think the greatest misunderstanding between Christians and non-Christians is that when a Christian talks about morality and a right way of living, the audience assumes that they are saying they are perfect, so when someone who is preaching one thing doesn't live up to the morality they become subject to greater criticism and become liars and hypocrites. Thank God there is forgiveness and the ability to ask for it. I think it's great that the God I believe in recognizes that these moral standards exist but also recognizes that there are mistakes and times where living up to them just don't happen. Even if I say, "I believe it is a sin to steal" and then I go and steal 20 bucks from my mom and you hear and see both things...i don't really care what you say about me, whether or not you think I am hypocritical. It all comes down to conviction of doing wrong at that point and has very little to do with the opinion of someone else. For me to talk of absolute truth and morality is not condemnation and judgment on anyone else. I wish I knew how to make that more clear.

I'm right with you on this. I also think I'm going to resurrect the People's Temple.

That's an understatment for me.

Very well said, Hegel-oh's. Non-Christians referring to Christians as hypocrites is the biggest cop-out there is. It's just a weak argument by people who don't want to be held accountable themselves.

i agree with you in general, i think a blanket statement that all christians are hypocrites is inaccurate and a cop out (not to mention that everybody is a hypocrite to some degree at some point in their lives). but i have personally encountered so-called "christians" who will tell you you're going to hell, the way you live isn't right, you need to repent and accept jesus, etc. now if somebody tells me that, i absolutely reserve the right to call them out on their bullshit--if somebody is going to sit in judgment of me, they better be following what they tell me i've got to follow. christ himself says that people who judge others are hypocrites (i forget the exact verse, but its something about calling out the speck in someone else's eye while ignoring the log in your own eye).
i think christians are most often referred to as hypocrites because there's way more christians in this country than any other religion. and while i realize the televangelist, religious-right brand of christianity doesn't speak for the vast majority of christians in this country, it's certainly the most visible. when you see people like jim baker, ralph reed and james dobson making themselves rich, condemning everone else, and shilling for the powerful, it makes christianity look really bad. my religious mother often laments the fact that these ass clowns are the public face of her faith.

Well, you'r forgetting some other real winners like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. However, even if they are the most public, it is not Christianity's fault that they exist. It's like someone said earlier, you cannot judge a religion based on it's followers. You ahve to judge it based on its own merits. That being said, it seems that a distaste for Christianity by someone who allows the public image of Christianity to define the religion is that individual persons fault, you know? They allow themselves to be deceived by the people that they know they are being deceived by. I agree. People have made Christianity look bad. But, I don't even despise the people like Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwell. They are capable of making mistakes as well. Although they may be self-deceived and not recognize their hypocrisy or inconsistencies, some day they will.

It is a fine line separating the two ideas of explaining basic doctrine of Christianity(like if you don't accept Jesus as your savior and repent of your sins and ask forgiveness of God for them then there will be eternal judgment) and judging someone. I guess it just takes someone saying, "this is a doctrine of Christianity-so on and so forth--as a preface". The hellfire and brimstone type of evangelizing is not of much value in my opinion. Rarely, though, do I see people doing that. I mean, that may happen as often if not less than a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon coming to your door and is therefore more of just an occassional annoyance rather than a consistent and inescapable problem.

The best way to evangelize is to build a relationship with someone with sincerity and then be there for them when a crisis occurs, because that's the only time someone will be truly open to hearing about God seriously. At least that's what I believe. But, it's like Jesus did--he built relationships with people and became trusted and spoke into people's lives. That should be our example. I rarely know of times in the Bible where Jesus spoke in the hellfire and brimstone way. He did, of course, speak that way, particularly to the Pharisees and said things like, "there is no way to the Father except through me". But, even though Jesus, within Christianity, is believed to have been perfect, he certainly did not live life without pissing people off. I mean, one thing people who say, "I like what Jesus stood for, but I don't like religion and Christianity" are overlooking is that Jesus claimed multiple times that He was God and that He was the means of salvation and he was killed for saying it. So, I guess I don't understand the aforementioned reasoning either. I mean, it seems like, if you look at the historical aspect of Jesus, you only have two options--either you believe what Jesus said, or you believe that he was a madman, crazy, and self-deluded like the fella from Waco.

I'll fully admit that, no, I can't prove there's no God, but no more than you can prove that there is. But I'll pull out two skeptic's favorites: "All things being equal, the simpler explanation is more likely to be true" and "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Certainly the existence of a supernatural being for which there can be no evidence, only faith, is not the simple explanation but the extraordinary one. To me, just by default, no God is more likely than God.

(Incidentally, I was raised a Christian, so my atheistic ways are not "automatic" but were arrived at through dedicated learning and questioning.)

When I'm being serious about it and not being snarky (see earlier post) or dismissive (I try not to be, but it slips out), I describe it this way: in all I've learned and experienced of the world in my 43 years, I don't need a god to explain it.

Sure, when the various holy books were written thousands of years ago, supernatural (other than natural) forces were just about the only explanation we had for most aspects of the world. Our world was the center of the universe, flat, and four thousand years old. Diseases were the result of demons or witchcraft. Mountains were raised up by the hand of God--they couldn't have just happened.

But in the years since, many of the mysteries of the world have been solved. One by one, things that we could only explain as the work of God have been discovered to have explainable, natural solutions--the laws of physics, microbes, plate techtonics. Many things we've needed a god to explain have fallen one by one, and I see no reason to believe that this trend won't continue. Sure, there are plenty of things we don't understand--may never understand--but to me it doesn't make sense to take the gaps in our knowledge and call it God.

It may not be evidence that there is no God, but the preponderance of evidence by now surely points us toward the idea that everything around us will turn out to have a natural--not supernatural--explanation.

I was raised Catholic and couldn't get away from that scene fast enough.

Boy, reading some of these posts was like going to a Bible school lesson.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


I hate it when people say, "I'm not religious but I'm spiritual". Yeah right you are.


It's such a dumb cliche.

Also, why does 99% of Christian music just flat out suck?



Is it God's will?

Elaborate please. How is it a cliche? Just to throw this log on the fire, but couldn't condemning Christianity and religion be conceived as "cliche" as well?





I would say that a majority of the people in the world would think that the music discussed on these boards everyday sucks. Hell, we can't even agree what is good so how does a blanket statement like that get made? Personal statement ?

Elaborate please. How is it a cliche? Just to throw this log on the fire, but couldn't condemning Christianity and religion be conceived as "cliche" as well?

Elaboration: I hear people say this all the time but no one can ever explain what the hell it means to them. My interpretation: You're just trying to save face and feel somewhat guilty that you have no faith in any religion at all, i.e. you're really spiritually empty.


Also, why does 99% of Christian music just flat out suck?


I would say that a majority of the people in the world would think that the music discussed on these boards everyday sucks. Hell, we can't even agree what is good so how does a blanket statement like that get made? Personal statement ?

Personal statement, yes. IMO.

i'm not sure that to accept jesus had good ideas is to drink all the kool aid. i think its possible to draw a distinction between belief and action--you can agree that the ways jesus told people to act were good, but the way he arrives at those ideas isn't. this is an argument i have with religious people all the time: i can believe that its a good idea to help other people, even without believing that i need to help other people because jesus, the one and only son of god, tells me i have to. you can look at what jesus did and not what he said he was. i look at it the same way that one can accept marx had some interesting and true things to say about class without being a commie. to me, the wonderful thing about not being religious is that you don't have to swallow a belief system whole.

I don't know if I agree with that. Surely, there is a percentage of the people who say that and do as you describe, but I would say that some people truly are spiritual and not religious. I consider myself the prior. I can explain what that means to me at least: To me, spirituality has to do with my soul. Concerning it with cleansing it, or ridding it from bad thoughts, etc. It also means to me that my soul can heal those around me, or that that soul can give me strength to get out of bed in the morning. Not to give people the easy way out, but to define what their spirituality is a moot point. Its a personal thing to many, and to define it to someone may or may not be relevent.

By "religion" I get the feeling that you are meaning to say "Christian religion". Are you saying that everyone else is spiritually empty??? I'm not surprised that you project your feelings of "guilt" on to the non-religious, but spirtual people, since Christianity controls their congregations through guilt and fear.

I am extremely spiritual and I assure you that I feel no guilt or fear of death.