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 Post subject: Thank you teachers union!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:15 pm 
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Now the kiddies have to go back to your shit public school and deal with your unmotivated tenured crap teachers


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:17 pm 
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I only read the first paragraph. Public money already goes to private schools. So what's the difference?

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:18 pm 
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wouldn't just putting more money into public schools help with this?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:35 pm 
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if you want your kid to go to a private school you have to pay for it.out of your own pocket. period.
the fact that your tax money already goes to (minimally) serve public schools is irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:38 pm 
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ayah Wrote:
if you want your kid to go to a private school you have to pay for it.out of your own pocket. period.
the fact that your tax money already goes to (minimally) serve public schools is irrelevant.


It's not minimal. I know for a fact that our private school would probably close without "assistance." You already "pay" for schooling. When I "pay" for things, I like to be able to choose the quality.

And how is it irrelevant? I only read the first paragraph, but isn't the issue on this case about public money going to private institutions? How is it different?

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:46 pm 
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i just don't think parents who choose to send their children to private school should receive direct assistance through a voucher system to help with tuition costs.

and one of my kids attends a private school.

i said minimal as more of a crack toward the ever dwindling federal and state funds and annual budget cuts being asked of public schools.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:54 pm 
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I understand you sentiment. However living in area with poor to down right awful public schools, this could be a huge win/win situation for everyone involved. I attend both public and private schools. My dad is a retired public school principal and my mom is public school teacher at a low economic primarily black school.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:42 pm 
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ayah Wrote:
if you want your kid to go to a private school you have to pay for it.out of your own pocket. period.
the fact that your tax money already goes to (minimally) serve public schools is irrelevant.


Why should it matter if a school is private or public? Why not, if you want your kid to go to any school you have to pay for it out of your own pocket? What's the public intent, that there be public schools or that children have access to education? The two are not the same.

Funding of "public" schools with public money perpetuates a self-serving government institution. The institution is bloated and wealthy. It abuses the money it absorbs, and the people who have to rely on it are the ones who suffer.

Why is it that the only ones vehemently opposed to any alternative that would enable students to attend better educational establishments are the unions and bureaucracies that would implode if the gobs of public money were diverted to places where it would be invested productively (i.e. in educating students)?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:48 pm 
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I think the real answers to improving public schools is still out there in a void somewhere. It's not vouchers, smaller classes or teacher's pay. I have all sorts of beef with public schools, but until you break some eggs there ain't gonna be any omelet.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:59 pm 
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on the topic of schools.....

here in kalamazoo, michigan...the kzoo public schools were crap, so everyone moved to portage (basically kzoo) to go to their public schools or private schools....

then something crazy happened this year - the kalamazoo promise

http://www.kalamazoopublicschools.com/e ... 1131671949

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:38 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
I think the real answers to improving public schools is still out there in a void somewhere. It's not vouchers, smaller classes or teacher's pay. I have all sorts of beef with public schools, but until you break some eggs there ain't gonna be any omelet.


I agree with this, but I also think that vouchers gives the public system manuvering room to make your changes now or later. Vouchers also provide something of a "band aid" for the present. I think the idea would be to improve the public schools so parents would prefer to send them there. Like in Texas.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:48 pm 
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oldbullee Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
I think the real answers to improving public schools is still out there in a void somewhere. It's not vouchers, smaller classes or teacher's pay. I have all sorts of beef with public schools, but until you break some eggs there ain't gonna be any omelet.


I agree with this, but I also think that vouchers gives the public system manuvering room to make your changes now or later. Vouchers also provide something of a "band aid" for the present. I think the idea would be to improve the public schools so parents would prefer to send them there. Like in Texas.


I haven't given this a whole lot of thought, so I may be full of holes…

Do vouchers help to improve the public schools or do they water down the private schools?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:57 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
oldbullee Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
I think the real answers to improving public schools is still out there in a void somewhere. It's not vouchers, smaller classes or teacher's pay. I have all sorts of beef with public schools, but until you break some eggs there ain't gonna be any omelet.


I agree with this, but I also think that vouchers gives the public system manuvering room to make your changes now or later. Vouchers also provide something of a "band aid" for the present. I think the idea would be to improve the public schools so parents would prefer to send them there. Like in Texas.


I haven't given this a whole lot of thought, so I may be full of holes…

Do vouchers help to improve the public schools or do they water down the private schools?


I don't see why they'd water down private schools. Don't most private schools have acceptance and enrollment standards?

I see vouchers as a way to bring market forces to play in education. If students leave the public school, that school will have to get its act together to attract students. Pressure should come from within--the school and its need for tuition dollars, and from the community, whose attractiveness will suffer if the schools deter people from moving/staying there.

It's similar to the old maxim, "Cash is a cushion, debt is a sword." While not "debt" per se, having to compete for funds will force them to bring a better product to the marketplace.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:03 pm 
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This is coming from my own expericnce here.

We have 1 private high school and several private elementaries. We are defintely on the border of needing a 2nd private school, and all the elementaries have the capacity and want to expand.

I'll venture to say that 85% of the kids who attend private school here come from middle class/working class families. Like my own parents, they sacrafice alot to send there kids to private schools. A voucher would do two things. Make it easier for them, and allow new families who want to but just can't find the money to. There might be some watering down, but it will still be better than our current situation. Right now the only good public elemenary school here has 6 2nd grades classes. Of which 4 of them are in portables. They have 20 portables all together.

Effect on public school system. We haven't built a new facility or made a significant remodel in over 20 years probably. All capital investment is wasted on "patching" our current facilities. I think if we can lessen the load, we can make some desperately needed improvements. Also this will allow the system to focus (time and money)on "at risk" schools, and come up with some real solutions.Not to mention that Katrina fallout has grown this area by 20% in 6 months. We were expecting that kind of growth over 5 years not months.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:16 pm 
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ayah Wrote:
if you want your kid to go to a private school you have to pay for it.out of your own pocket. period.
the fact that your tax money already goes to (minimally) serve public schools is irrelevant.


Yikes!

I think every student should get some kind of allocation of money (to be used for tuition only of course, sort of like a college grant) that the parents then have the right to use as they wish to send them to whatever school they want. If they want to pay above and beyond the free public school, it should be their choice. If they want to invest more money into a better school, then so be it. It would be a wake up call to public schools that suck that they need to shape up, or close up.

On a side note, around here, the private school teachers make less than the public ones with less benefits. They choose to teach at the private schools because it is something they believe in at a place they want to be, which is a totally different foundation for the children to learn on. Sure some public teachers are devoted, but would they take less money somewhere else?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:28 pm 
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I only had time to read Billz' opening statement describing the article and to him I say "piss off". You go spend your own money to buy supplies and work your tail off for a majority of students who couldn't give a crap if the roof fell in on them. In ten years they'll be boilermakers with 6 months off per year making twice the money I do, and will do it with drop-out level education.

Don't stereotype public school teachers, dude.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:32 pm 
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Stop Breathin' Wrote:
I only had time to read Billz' opening statement describing the article and to him I say "piss off". You go spend your own money to buy supplies and work your tail off for a majority of students who couldn't give a crap if the roof fell in on them. In ten years they'll be boilermakers with 6 months off per year making twice the money I do, and will do it with drop-out level education.

Don't stereotype public school teachers, dude.


Careful, you may need to vote Dem if you ain't careful Mike.

I LOVE the Teacher's Unions.

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I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:32 pm 
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Stop Breathin' Wrote:
for a majority of students who couldn't give a crap if the roof fell in on them. In ten years they'll be boilermakers with 6 months off per year making twice the money I do, and will do it with drop-out level education.


Helluva a supportive attitude you have toward those entrusted to you for you to teach. Hate to say, but you seem like a huge part of the problem. If it wasn't for tenure or your union, you'd be fighting those students down upon whom you look for those boilermaker jobs.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:42 pm 
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Public school teachers here are better than private, when they're not burned out and disillusioned. That's why I fully believe public schools have more to offer potentially.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:46 pm 
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Senator LooGAR, TX Monger Wrote:
I LOVE the Teacher's Unions.


That's because government money is like heroin, and your Dems are the pushers.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:48 pm 
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Billzebub Wrote:
Senator LooGAR, TX Monger Wrote:
I LOVE the Teacher's Unions.


That's because government money is like heroin, and your Dems are the pushers.


Yes, an educated public is JUST like a junkie public.

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:51 pm 
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An under-educated public is what you're fostering, keeping the less fortunate in under-performing public schools.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:17 pm 
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Billzebub Wrote:
Stop Breathin' Wrote:
for a majority of students who couldn't give a crap if the roof fell in on them. In ten years they'll be boilermakers with 6 months off per year making twice the money I do, and will do it with drop-out level education.



Helluva a supportive attitude you have toward those entrusted to you for you to teach. Hate to say, but you seem like a huge part of the problem. If it wasn't for tenure or your union, you'd be fighting those students down upon whom you look for those boilermaker jobs.


Come do it for awhile, and then talk to me. You don't have a clue. For your information, I worked as a boilermaker for a time to help put myself through college. To imply that I have a poor attitude toward my job is to not know me at all. Neither the students nor the parents of them that you claim are entrusted to me truly "entrust" to me nothing more than the job of babysitter. You can lead a horse to water, bub...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:14 am 
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I think that in California teachers at private schools do not need to have teaching credentials. I'm not positive though, and am too lazy to look it up.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:21 am 
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My problem with the vouchers is basically rooted in my belief that a solid public educational system benefits damn near everybody. To me, the vouchers reek of abandoning public school systems, not forcing them to compete.

I'm not real fond of the government's ability to provide services, but public education is one of the exceptions. And when the government is in the business of giving out vouchers to ditch the public schools, I just don't see that as either a wise use of public funds or a very confident gesture for existing public school systems.

One step is to create a brand new way to remove or quarantine both unacceptable students and unacceptable teachers. At one point in time (and it still may be true, I don't know) teachers right here in Anne Arundel County, Maryland were tenured after just two years as full-time teachers. I am very pleased with the quality of public education I had here, but two years is just not enough time to ascertain a teacher's effectiveness.

We also need to find workable ways of measuring teacher effectiveness. I am not a fan of standardized tests to measure teacher performance, and I'm not really sure how to go about it.

It's not perfect, but at Louisiana Tech University, at the end of each grading quarter, you were given teacher evaluations. One was a Scan-Tron of the "Agree Strongly" to "Disagree Strongly" variety. That went the teacher's boss/department head/dean. You were also given a blank free answer sheet to submit anonymous comments. Those were retained by the teacher to take as constructive criticism or an invitation to perform anatomically impossible contortions. Not saying that's the best way, but I did like that system and found that a decent amount of slacker college students answered truthfully.

But if you can't fire teachers and you can't remove the discipline problems without the threat of losing funding, you aren't going to get anywhere anytime soon.

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