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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:59 am 
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Fu, while I agree with what you wrote somewhat. I still think vouchers is a practical short-term solution to help facilitate long term solutions.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:09 am 
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I'll be the first to admit I haven't really thought about them all that much. School? YUCK.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:10 am 
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Second Album Slump
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Private schools that use federal money take away from public schools which need all the money that they can get. Not everyone can afford to attend Private schools and the students who have to attend public schools need all the help that they can get. If You can afford to send a kid to private schools then you don't need the help of vouchers.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:36 pm 
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Billzebub Wrote:
Senator LooGAR, TX Monger Wrote:
I LOVE the Teacher's Unions.


That's because government money is like heroin, and your Dems are the pushers.


Amazing. All that government crack building roads, and crank keeping airplanes from crashing into each other, and ecstasy shipping the children of the working class to foreign shores to defend your sorry ass. Yep, that dern, upatriotic gov'ment money.

Of course that Republican bridge to Nowhere off the deserted coast of Alaska isn't smack. And give me a good ole fashioned corrupt lobbyist anyday... now that's the Republican drug you can really give a rush to the body politic.

Sorry, but the idea that somehow public schools are a waste of public money is shortsighted and comes from a rigid political perspective that warps the truth about public schools, vouchers, and class:

The poor have no cultural capital to build another life. Schools, public education is one of the few recourses. That schools are in trouble, are incomplete in face of this daunting task, and probably need to crack a few eggs (c.f. Mr. Elvis Fu) is a very different question. Actually though, research shows that groups of similar students (white, middle class, in possession of cultural capital) are actually doing much better in recent years and outperform their similar demographics in western Europe. Public schools are NOT underserving the very students whose families can use and respond to the voucher initiatives and privitization of schools. It is the increasing number of racial, poor and linguistic groups who have been historically underserved, and other than in places like Washington DC have been excluded form the voucher movement, that schools are failing. And actually society is failing: lots of research that simply having healthcare will raise these kids standardized test scores.

In any case ignorance is not blilss... and ignorance in these areas is dangerously unpatriotic, and will continue to fuel the widening distance between the Two Americas.... we are close to becoming Nigeria or Peru.

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Last edited by harry on Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:41 pm 
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Quote:
One step is to create a brand new way to remove or quarantine both unacceptable students and unacceptable teachers.


I agree wholeheartedly.

Elvis Fu, meet ACLU/NAACP/Teachers Unions en masse.

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Hey Peter. You've been pretty sweet since Easter break."


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:55 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
It's not perfect, but at Louisiana Tech University, at the end of each grading quarter, you were given teacher evaluations. One was a Scan-Tron of the "Agree Strongly" to "Disagree Strongly" variety. That went the teacher's boss/department head/dean. You were also given a blank free answer sheet to submit anonymous comments. Those were retained by the teacher to take as constructive criticism or an invitation to perform anatomically impossible contortions. Not saying that's the best way, but I did like that system and found that a decent amount of slacker college students answered truthfully.


Uncle Brian and I basically got one of our PolSci teachers (he was a GA but still teaching a 400 level class) through the use of those "evaluations".....

As to vouchers: If you want a country full of black kids with NO education even as opposed to the minimal education they are receiving in some of these public schools---then go for it.

Aint no private schools taking in no PWT or black kids. Public schools may be badly bent but they ain't broke and they are (unfortunately IMHO) essential.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:43 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Aint no private schools taking in no PWT or black kids. Public schools may be badly bent but they ain't broke and they are (unfortunately IMHO) essential.

IMHO, and I am a pretty populist dude, though I hate the unwashed masses, I think they need to be embraced to bring society forward, public schools, no matter how broken, are preferable to all those private school nonces I have to deal with all the time.

And BELIEVE YOU ME, vouchers, and people who advocate them only want to destroy public education, not help it. And they really only want to do it at this point cos its dogma, not cos they think it'll work.

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harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:58 pm 
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I actually like to hear what Mike thinks about vouchers. I can't speak for Kentwood or his public school, but our's couldn't be worse (unless it was N.O.). I have had several friends thorughout the years who moved around alot, and the only time they ever went to private schools was in Louisiana.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:02 pm 
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Whiskey Tango
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Senator LooGAR, TX Monger Wrote:
I am a pretty populist dude, though I hate the unwashed masses


Yeah, me too. It's called being liberals and this is Exibit A as to why nobody likes us or wants to elect us to anything important anymore.

Senator LooGAR, TX Monger Wrote:
And BELIEVE YOU ME, vouchers, and people who advocate them only want to destroy public education, not help it. And they really only want to do it at this point cos its dogma, not cos they think it'll work.


Agreed and I've thought it for years. The wisdom of this concept that eliminating public education is a good idea has always alluded my feeble mind.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:20 pm 
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My thoughts on vouchers are pretty much the same as Yail and Loog's. If you place the "PWT and blacks" in private schools, you are putting them at the feet of (in Louisiana) less qualified teachers than are in public schools. Most of the teachers that I know who teach in Louisiana private schools are either non-certified because they can't pass the PRAXIS, or are retired public school teachers who are trying to flee the PWT and blacks. It's a socioeconomic thing again. Now in south Louisiana, which is filled with Catholic parochial schools, which, by the way, were originally created to help the poor gain an education, this may be different. As for the rest of (or redneck) Louisiana, private schools are nothing more than white flight institutions filled with students whose parents are really more concerned with keeping their kids away from blacks than with giving them a quality education. Through increased teacher accountability and high stakes testing, Louisiana public schools have actually moved up in national rankings in the last few years. The state government is in the middle of a backpeddle, though, on the high stakes testing even as we speak. Too many students in low socioeconomic areas are still unable to pass and leaving them behind indefinitely is not practical. So now we are adopting a little thing called Option 3, which is basically a way for kids who simply can't pass the tests to still limp through school. Believe me, I have many high quality students whose parents care deeply about their educations and their futures. I strive to serve these children to the best of my ability. If that is being a "part of the problem" then so be it. Everyone should do a year of public school teaching in a poor area if they want to see the reality of the situation. Saddest thing is that politicians are only serving up band-aids while the institution as a whole continues to deteriorate.

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because you're empty, and I'm empty

Cotton Wrote:
I'd probably just drink myself to death. More so, I mean.


"Hey Judas. I know you've made a grave mistake.
Hey Peter. You've been pretty sweet since Easter break."


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:30 pm 
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Whiskey Tango
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thanks for doing what you do Mike.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:47 pm 
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great post, harry.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:50 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
thanks for doing what you do Mike.


Couldn't see myself doing anything else. Love it.

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because you're empty, and I'm empty

Cotton Wrote:
I'd probably just drink myself to death. More so, I mean.


"Hey Judas. I know you've made a grave mistake.
Hey Peter. You've been pretty sweet since Easter break."


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:42 am 
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From grades 1 to 12, I went to various private schools for 6 years and various public schools for 6 years. The private schools were good, but the well-funded public schools were just as good, if not better. The key is to shower the public education system with the resources that it needs to operate effectively.

There are a many serious problems with vouchers anyway. The most obvous example is that vouchers rob poorer public school districts of much needed income. Also, not all students can take "advantage" of voucher opportunities because unlike public schools, private schools may discriminate on the basis of religion, race, or test scores, and they aren't even required to accommodate students with learning disabilities or other special needs. I don't want our children to live in an education system where the schools aren't open to all.


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