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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:04 am 
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Go Platinum

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frosted a. spoon Wrote:
I'm not a Democrat. You certainly garnered a lot of supposition there. I'm not apathetic. I'm flabbergasted, horrified and beaten down by a highly effective and ballsy administration that's managed to scoff off nearly all attempts to have itself checked and that's succeeded in using terror and tragedy to secure far too much power.

When I say I used to care, I'm being facetious. I care very much. But bitching and moaning has done no good whatsoever.

As for the Republican party, Bush is not eternal. There are more Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe out there and the party will not always be the way it is now.

Anyway, I do care. My post was a flippant way of saying Bush has won again and again and again, when again and again and again I believe him to be a lying sack of puss.



well alright then. high five? :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:38 am 
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frostingspoon
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"I went after Osama and all I got is Quail"

Insert joke about the spelling of "potato" here.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:54 am 
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frostingspoon
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The rest of you can ignore this (and have...). Thanks for playing ball, joe.

Hegel-oh's Wrote:
I suppose that is where the faith comes in for me, like I said before. I can't wrap my head around the idea that because something is more dependant than the same thing a few months later that it is ok to abort it. I guess it's my gut feeling...so I know, before I get ridiculed, that that is not any means to prove anything....

Perhaps the best way to rephrase the point is "When does the fetus become a separate entity?" In the early parts of fetal development, you can argue that the fetus and the carrier can be viewed as one entity. This is consistent with the pro-choice rhetoric of a woman's right to control her body. One could argue that as long as the fetus' chances of survival outside the womb are 0%, it's still part of the mother.

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I guess to me it seems that it is almost as much faith to say that the soul enters the body after 24 weeks as it is to say it enters at conception--unless of course you are not meaning to imply that a soul ever enters. And it is something that cannot be proven secularly. Ok, so let me ask that. Do you believe in the soul and the spirit and the conciousness ideas that separate human life from plants and animals?

I never mentioned soul or spirit in my personhood definition. To do so puts secularity at risk. I think "consciousness" is an appropriate term, though. When does the entity have control over its faculties, however limited they might be? When are all five senses available? When does it reach the state of awareness that newborn infants have? The best secular answer to this I've heard is week 24 of development(wikipedia says week 23-26).

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Also, even if it were argued that the rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness aplly to feti(uses) then technically it could be called murder...right? If you are violating the right of life to a fetus then it is murder, in a technical sense...??

Absolutely. It's proving the rights argument that's the tough part.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:34 pm 
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frostingspoon

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i find it interesting that some people are more likely to say "no go" on stem cell research in the "war on desease" but more likely to support 20 year olds being shipped to Iraq to kill.

i'm not saying either one is more right or more wrong, i just find it interesting.
because whichever one believes they believe very strongly, and ususally it's one or the other.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:42 pm 
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frostingspoon
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jewels santana Wrote:
i find it interesting that some people are more likely to say "no go" on stem cell research in the "war on desease" but more likely to support 20 year olds being shipped to Iraq to kill.

i'm not saying either one is more right or more wrong, i just find it interesting.
because whichever one believes they believe very strongly, and ususally it's one or the other.


Same thing with abortion and death penalty, though I am aware there is a penalty aspect I disagree with to figure into the equation.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:57 pm 
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A True Aristocrat of Freedom

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harry Wrote:
sensei Wrote:
Can I vomit my disingenuous bile all over you without being inflammatory and mischaracterizing Democrats?


Sir, you are transparent, both in the flimsy structure of your arguments, and in the attempt to portray yourself as one who would want Democrats to win.

What Democrats must do is become democrats. Not shy away from "the greatest good for the greatest number." Point out that our fate has fallen into the hands of robber barons and plutocrats. Present clear information about the reduced economic circumstance of most Americans, 48 million Americans without healthcare, the great personal cost of globallized market techno-capitalism. They need to not pull punches. They need to make Americans vote in their own self interest.

They also need to appeal to the American mythos of fair play and compassion. Helping those who get a raw deal. They need to make these arguments from a moral perspective, reclaiming morality from the box-store evangelicals and the Opus Dei catholics. When Obama said "we in the blue states worship an awesome God..." that began a journey that will end with a Democratic president in 2008. The goofy governor of Virginia won the Stat of the Union competition for any of the 6 percent of Americans who sway the country from progressive to rightist presidents.

I've got the idea that Hillary isn't the person to make these arguments... I think Gore has the moral cojones, and actually the moral commitment to move his party back into power.

It's about morality. That is what will work for Democrats, and that is what matters.


The problem is that American Politics is reactionary..and once it reacts it takes FOREVER to swing back. AL, MS, LA, ARK, TN all still have at least one house of their legislature controlled solidly by Democrats....and that is a hold over from the Civil War.

Modern Republicanism is simply a reaction to Rooseveltian Democratic Politics Run Amok..which was a reaction to The Depression and the failed policies that led us there.

Swings of the pendulum kids..now, I think it can be said that the pendulum needs a push, and that push ain't someobody who can't "talk to the folk." And that push isn't somebody that will inch us back to a more controlled economy...the problem is that all the things you cited will need to become a CRISIS, and by crisis I don't mean what we have now, but people not being able to afford penicillin for anything meaningful to happen.

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:35 pm 
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Senator Top Cat LooGAR Wrote:
[The problem is that American Politics is reactionary..and once it reacts it takes FOREVER to swing back.


Very well observed. Reaction, as in:

"gall dern rich republicans shipping jobs american jobs overseas and creating tax breaks for the rich that screw the working man, liars talking with crook lobbyists and fatcat congressmen using our tax money to build bridges to nowhere in their kick-back pork-barrel scumminess..."

Remember the buzz of regard that Pat Buchanan received in recent campaigns in 90's? I think a Democrat can tap into this energy source of reaction sooner rather than later.... the shelf-life of reactionary cycles has shortened in our digitally accelerated culture.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:36 am 
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frostingspoon
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Senator Top Cat LooGAR Wrote:
[The problem is that American Politics is reactionary..and once it reacts it takes FOREVER to swing back.


Dicky swings right-quick, though,.
Image
"Uh-ma git Al Qailda."


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:49 am 
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frostingspoon
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I ran across this in my reading this morning, even though it is from over a year ago. Since this thread got bumped, I'm posting it. I think Reynolds makes some interesting points, but I'm sure I will be in a pathetic minority around here. Truth be told however, it's not uncommon for a self-titled Progressive to react to "Free Market" (and I'm not even talking about 100% economic anarchy, but moreso even minor events like price gouging) much in the same way Pentecostal preachers react to Darwin.

Loose Definitions
The religious streak running through US politics makes it hard to say what conservative means, says US political blogger Glenn Reynolds

Thursday October 7, 2004. The Guardian thinks I'm a Republican and a conservative. I shouldn't let on that this belief is based on somewhat shaky ground, because this column is a sweet gig, and - well - why rock the boat?

But in truth, I'm neither - or at least, whatever I am sheds some light on how useful (or not) such labels are. The reasons I don't fit in very well on either the left or right sides of US politics shed some light on that divide, too.

I'm certainly not a Republican, although I will very probably - actually, almost certainly - vote for George Bush this time. But I have been a card-carrying member of only two parties, the Democrats and, when I grew disenchanted with them, the Libertarians.

I broke with the Democrats because, under President Clinton, they seemed to have abandoned their traditional support for civil liberties: Clinton's 1996 Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act was, in many ways, a more sweeping assertion of government power than Bush's Patriot Act, which was really just about plugging some holes in the Clinton legislation.

As for conservative - well, I don't know what that word means any more. I certainly don't fit in with the religious right. I support gay marriage, drug legalisation and abortion rights. I am in favour of stem-cell research, and against prayer in school.

Nevertheless, some people call me a conservative because I support President Bush's war on terror, which is really (although Bush is too diplomatic to say so) a war on fundamentalist Islamist terror. I also oppose gun control (you can read a rather lengthy discussion of my views on the right to arms under the American constitution here, and a much shorter treatment here).

Does that make me a conservative? To paraphrase Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of conservative is. As I posted on my weblog recently: "I'd be delighted to live in a country where happily married gay couples had closets full of assault weapons."

Is that a conservative belief? Perhaps, if the notion is the traditional strain of American belief that government should mind its own business, and that what goes on in our bedrooms, or our closets, is none of its business.

Meanwhile, religiosity - something often associated, especially by Europeans, with American conservatism - is also a staple of the US left. Just look at that icon of US liberalism, Hillary Clinton. The north-eastern style leftism associated with her is sometimes frankly, sometimes implicitly, religious. As Michael Kelly noted in a profile of her, reprinted in his book Things Worth Fighting For:

"The politics of Hillary Rodham Clinton are indeed largely liberal (although, the post election evidence indicates, no more so than those of her husband), but they are of a liberalism derived from religiosity. They combine a generally 'progressive' social agenda with a strong dose of moralism ...

"They are, rather than primarily the politics of left or right, the politics of do-goodism, flowing directly from a powerful and continual stream that runs through American history, from Harriet Beecher Stowe to Jane Addams to Carry Nation to Dorothy Day, from the social gospel of the late 19th century to the temperance-minded Methodism of the early 20th century to the liberation theology of the 1960s and 1970s, to the pacifistic and multi-culturally correct religious left of today ...

"It is concerned not just with how government should behave, but with how people should. It is the message of the preacher, a role Hillary Rodham Clinton has filled many times delivering guest sermons from the pulpits of United Methodist churches."

And, actually, the roots of this do-goodism are ultimately in New England Puritanism, which had many characteristics associated with today's left. Among them were a hostility to wealth - illustrated by sumptuary laws - a belief that the welfare of the community trumped the rights of individuals (Hillary combined both these aspects in her famous recent statement: "We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good"). Puritans favoured dense settlement in towns over spread-out farmers - they were, in a sense, the first opponents of "sprawl".

Even the most stereotypical aspect of the Puritans is not as out of place as you might think. Puritans were, of course, notoriously hostile to sex, but the modern left has threads of those sentiments, too - witness the anti-sex screeds of Catharine MacKinnon or Andrea Dworkin. In fact, Puritans, who were actually quite enthusiastic about marital sex, may actually have been less Puritanical in this regard than some modern feminists.

Not all leftwingers in the US are as frankly religious as Hillary Clinton, and many don't even realise that the ideas that they champion have deep religious roots. But even for these people, being leftwing has itself become a sort of religion, with those who disagree viewed as sinister, almost demonic forces, rather than simply as individuals holding different views.

The language of righteousness and sin, if not that of redemption and grace, remains a hallmark of the purportedly secular left, though I find it no more attractive than the language of the religious right.

I don't fit into the religious right or the religious left. But, in America, you don't get to choose a major political party that does not have some sort of religious strain to it.

And it strikes me that one reason why politics in the US have become so much more bitter over the past couple of decades is that two rather different threads of religiosity have come to dominate the two major parties in distinct fashion, where each party had previously incorporated major components of both. This has turned political battles into quasi-religious ones.

Not being a devotee of either strain of American politico-religious faith, I find this rather tiresome, and more than a bit disturbing - but I think it's likely to represent the state of things for the foreseeable future.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:51 pm 
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I find it fascinating how people like Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are considered left-wing.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:38 pm 
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Natural Harvester
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sensei Wrote:

The Democratic base has some of the most vitriolic and radical kooks there is.



key word: kooks


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:25 pm 
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frostingspoon
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Borg166 Wrote:
I find it fascinating how people like Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are considered left-wing.


I know Kucinich is your boy, but Clinton & Kerry get namedropped because no one knows who Kucinich is, nor do they really care.

It's kind of like how they call Shania Twain a country star, yet have no idea that Kris Kristofferson had a career other than those vampire movies.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:21 am 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Borg166 Wrote:
I find it fascinating how people like Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are considered left-wing.


I know Kucinich is your boy, but Clinton & Kerry get namedropped because no one knows who Kucinich is, nor do they really care.

It's kind of like how they call Shania Twain a country star, yet have no idea that Kris Kristofferson had a career other than those vampire movies.


I think the point is that both Clinton and Kerry are both beholden to elitist power structures of multi-national capitalist ideologues. They have some differences with the current administration, and those differences are important.... but in the larger world historical view both Clinton and Kerry are pretty "conservative."

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:30 am 
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frostingspoon
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Yeah, I got that and don't disagree.

But most American voters really don't care, because these are the candidates within the field of vision.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:37 am 
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Post-Breakup Solo Project

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politics man.
outside of my vote,
my knowledge and emotion about such
somehow equals my participation;
or it's just
masturbation.
read a fucking book.
think about it.
go about your life.
or become a shithead, souless, self-serving whore politician.
don't tell me what's really going on when you have no fucking clue.


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