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Free Will Vs. Destiny
Free Will 37%  37%  [ 7 ]
Destiny 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
A Little of Both 37%  37%  [ 7 ]
I don't know, but it can't be both. By definition, they're mutually exclusive. 16%  16%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 19
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 Post subject: Poll for the religious.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:24 pm 
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So what's it gonna be? Atheists and agnostics, we all know you're digging on the free will, so please feel free to interject comments, reasoning, etc, but leave the poll for the people who actually have to make a choice and reason this out. This is to find out how the religious mind deals with this debate.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:26 pm 
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Free Will.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:28 pm 
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i'm agnostic and i belive both, but 99.99999% free will.
but as they say, "everyone believes in god in the fox hole"

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:30 pm 
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oldbullee Wrote:
Free Will.


Being religious, do you operate under the premise that god is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? If so, doesn't free will imply that god is not omniscient?

If he's omniscient, then he KNOWS. And if he knows, then it's planned, and if it's planned, then you don't have free will.

Explain your thoughts please.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:32 pm 
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jewels santana Wrote:
i'm agnostic and i belive both, but 99.99999% free will.
but as they say, "everyone believes in god in the fox hole"


Dig it.

But how can it be both? How can destiny and free will possibly co-exist?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:32 pm 
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personally, i think that everything's been laid out for us. by whom, i have no idea. maybe god, maybe marv albert, who knows.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:34 pm 
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Nice, Phil. This is the question that my religious mind tosses around more than any other. I've been back and forth. Right now, based upon my Biblical interpretation, I say destiny. Though you can find scripture that seems to contradict this, I think when taken as an overall text, I can't deny destiny as Biblical.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:34 pm 
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red Wrote:
personally, i think that everything's been laid out for us. by whom, i have no idea. maybe god, maybe marv albert, who knows.


so no free will. How'd you arrive at that belief?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:35 pm 
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Prince of Darkness Wrote:
jewels santana Wrote:
i'm agnostic and i belive both, but 99.99999% free will.
but as they say, "everyone believes in god in the fox hole"


Dig it.

But how can it be both? How can destiny and free will possibly co-exist?


i dont' believe in destiny, but i believe god or whatever likes to tinker with the rules every once in a while. It's not a rational thought, but it's one i think sometimes.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:35 pm 
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Free will.

This is a tough debate, especially within christianity. You get into Armenianism vs. Calvinism/Free Will vs. Predestination. I have discussed this business to no end. It's a long long long debate without any real final answers. Neither side is "proven". All one really has is human experience I guess.

But, for me, it's hard to handle the idea of pre-determination. It just doesn't make sense to me and does not seem to correspond with common human experience.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:36 pm 
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Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Nice, Phil. This is the question that my religious mind tosses around more than any other. I've been back and forth. Right now, based upon my Biblical interpretation, I say destiny. Though you can find scripture that seems to contradict this, I think when taken as an overall text, I can't deny destiny as Biblical.


Ugh. How anyone can live their life according to this book...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:37 pm 
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Prince of Darkness Wrote:
oldbullee Wrote:
Free Will.


Being religious, do you operate under the premise that god is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? If so, doesn't free will imply that god is not omniscient?

If he's omniscient, then he KNOWS. And if he knows, then it's planned, and if it's planned, then you don't have free will.

Explain your thoughts please.


I hate this debate because I usually work myself in circles as I try to reason it out for myself. But basically, I refuse to not believe in free will because what would be the point? For my own sanity puposes, I try not think of life as a great waste of time. Also I think that some things are impossible to truly understand and believe in total. I know there is some story about St. Augustine trying to figure out the holy trinity and God telling him that he'll never be able to comprehend it. That's me with Free Will and God's presence.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:39 pm 
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Prince of Darkness Wrote:
oldbullee Wrote:
Free Will.


Being religious, do you operate under the premise that god is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? If so, doesn't free will imply that god is not omniscient?

If he's omniscient, then he KNOWS. And if he knows, then it's planned, and if it's planned, then you don't have free will.

Explain your thoughts please.


Omniscience implies that god knows everything. However, another accepted belief is that God is outside of time. If this is the case then he views the course of any individuals life as a time line. He can see WHAT choices any person will make and can influence those decisions but this does not mean that God will DETERMINE which choices are made. There are a handful of examples of God changing his mind within the Bible. One time was with Moses and God was so upset with the Israelites that he told Moses he wanted to destroy all of them and start over with him(Moses), but Moses argued to give them another chance and basically God said ok.

Within Christianity, things are believed to be relational with God, therefore what happenes is affected by the relationship that exists and its depth.

edit: also, if one believes in a strict determinism, then this implies that everything is directed by God, therefore all evil comes from God as well. This cannot be the case because God would cease to be God. God cannot be evil. Just by definition. At least I believe that is what is generally accepted.


Last edited by Hegel on Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:41 pm 
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Prince of Darkness Wrote:
red Wrote:
personally, i think that everything's been laid out for us. by whom, i have no idea. maybe god, maybe marv albert, who knows.


so no free will. How'd you arrive at that belief?

i simply don't believe that people are capable of waking up one day and changing their entire life around. granted, i've had a lot of changes in the past few years (friends, divorce, jobs, etc.), but i've never felt that it's been because of anything i did. i think it was just all laid out for me.

like i said, it's just a personal belief. i'm sure that there are many who can dispute this, even citing examples, but i just don't agree.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:44 pm 
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OPA! Wrote:
Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Nice, Phil. This is the question that my religious mind tosses around more than any other. I've been back and forth. Right now, based upon my Biblical interpretation, I say destiny. Though you can find scripture that seems to contradict this, I think when taken as an overall text, I can't deny destiny as Biblical.


Ugh. How anyone can live their life according to this book...


the ten commandments aren't so bad to base your life around, at least loosely. don't kill, don't cheat, don't steal... easy to follow and no one gets hurt. but, i get your point because there's a lot more to the bible that i wouldn't want to follow.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:46 pm 
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OPA! Wrote:
Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Nice, Phil. This is the question that my religious mind tosses around more than any other. I've been back and forth. Right now, based upon my Biblical interpretation, I say destiny. Though you can find scripture that seems to contradict this, I think when taken as an overall text, I can't deny destiny as Biblical.


Ugh. How anyone can live their life according to this book...


Because not everyone was born perfect like you, Miss Priss.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:47 pm 
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red Wrote:
Prince of Darkness Wrote:
red Wrote:
personally, i think that everything's been laid out for us. by whom, i have no idea. maybe god, maybe marv albert, who knows.


so no free will. How'd you arrive at that belief?

i simply don't believe that people are capable of waking up one day and changing their entire life around. granted, i've had a lot of changes in the past few years (friends, divorce, jobs, etc.), but i've never felt that it's been because of anything i did. i think it was just all laid out for me.

like i said, it's just a personal belief. i'm sure that there are many who can dispute this, even citing examples, but i just don't agree.


i can't dispute it, but i can't fathom thinking it. I'm not saying your are stupid for thinking that i just literally can't wrap my mind around the idea of full destiny.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:49 pm 
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Let an elder atheist help you out here.

God has been conceived of as an omniscient eternal being. For an omniscient eternal being there can be no such thing as past, present, or future. For such a being everything happens /happened at exactly the same time (and that time is called eternity). Therefore, although this god fellow may already know your destiny, he doesn't necessarily control it. So free will can exist along with the Christian god.

Now, as far as all the stuff like god changing his mind, god arguing with angels, etcetera you're on your own.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:49 pm 
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Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Nice, Phil. This is the question that my religious mind tosses around more than any other. I've been back and forth. Right now, based upon my Biblical interpretation, I say destiny. Though you can find scripture that seems to contradict this, I think when taken as an overall text, I can't deny destiny as Biblical.


ooh. good stuff.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:50 pm 
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Hegel-Oh's Wrote:
Prince of Darkness Wrote:
oldbullee Wrote:
Free Will.


Being religious, do you operate under the premise that god is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? If so, doesn't free will imply that god is not omniscient?

If he's omniscient, then he KNOWS. And if he knows, then it's planned, and if it's planned, then you don't have free will.

Explain your thoughts please.



edit: also, if one believes in a strict determinism, then this implies that everything is directed by God, therefore all evil comes from God as well. This cannot be the case because God would cease to be God. God cannot be evil. Just by definition. At least I believe that is what is generally accepted.


This is where you and me differ. I believe their might be a fallacy of evil and that it does not really exist. One of the Old Testament names for the devil translates to Prosecutor. Meaning that he is an agent of God to test humans. I believe this might be possible.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:52 pm 
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A little free will, some destiny, and a lotta CHANCE.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:53 pm 
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i believe that God has destined me to eat chicken nuggets today, but that i must be willing to accept that destiny when the time comes.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:58 pm 
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Don't you at least get free will when it comes to sauces?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:58 pm 
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can god make a rock so big that he himself can not lift it?

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