Poll for the religious.

Hegel · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:05 pm

Stop Breathin' Wrote:

Do I have faith that God will send some to a place called hell? Yes.Did God intend this? :?:

Free will was given in the Garden and man chose wrong. From around then to Jesus, the law. But the law is not possible for any man to keep, so did everone from Adam to Jesus go to hell? I think not. Check Job out.

Then Jesus. Savior. Saved from what? The penalty of the law. Jesus accepted the wrath of God at the crucifixion. Propitiation. So the law is moot? No. Read Paul's epistles. He speaks extensively of freedom. Of will. But the crux of the debate is free will or destiny to believe what is written here. This is where I (currently) choose destiny. Keep spinnin'

I would like to discuss this further. But I don't think I am going to do it within this thread. It could get crazy. haha.

Promethium · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:17 pm

Prince of Darkness Wrote:

oldbullee Wrote:

Free Will.

Being religious, do you operate under the premise that god is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? If so, doesn't free will imply that god is not omniscient?

If he's omniscient, then he KNOWS. And if he knows, then it's planned, and if it's planned, then you don't have free will.

Explain your thoughts please.

Just because he knows does not imply that it is planned. It's kind of like putting a cat and a mouse in a cage knowing full well the cat will most likely eat the mouse. I tend to think God creates situations that test us and he assumes we will most likely make the choice he probably doesn't want us to make. I voted Free will, but I'll be the first to admit that I think God or who/whatever is in control of our spiritual universe occasionally jumps into the action and creates a predeterminate result.

Cap'n Squirrgle · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:20 pm

Did anyone make a Free Willy joke yet?

tehobner · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:48 pm **Posts:** 4479

which one's the "whatever" option?

andyfest · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:43 pm

Well, I jumped in here very late so most of my struggles with these issues have been discussed.

Personally, I said "I don't know, but it can't be both. By definition, they're mutually exclusive." Traditionally, I'm a card-carrying member of the free-will camp but I've been attending a Presbyterian church that is very Calvinist. After hearing and debating there for several months now, I can totally see their argument in a way that didn't make sense to me before.

However, I get hung up on two main things (plus many, many others):

1. Does Calvinism being true mean God created sin? (as has been debated here)

2. Once a person is saved, can his/her salvation be lost?

Right now, I don't have a good answer to #1 and don't agree with the Calvinists about #2.

In the end, I think it has to be one or the other. Free-will means God's not completely in control and destiny means there's nothing we can do and, therefore, can't really be blamed for anything. I can't make up my mind which makes more sense but I'm still studying it and learning a lot.

Billzebub · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:26 pm **Posts:** 6459

Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:

Did anyone make a Free Willy joke yet?

I considered it, but it would have fallen short of the Rush reference.

ayah · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:03 pm **Posts:** 6402

andyfest Wrote:

Free-will means God's not completely in control and destiny means there's nothing we can do and, therefore, can't really be blamed for anything. I can't make up my mind which makes more sense but I'm still studying it and learning a lot.

free-will has you leading the ncaa tournament pool so i'd stick with that.

Cap'n Squirrgle · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:49 pm

Fu Wrote:

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!

THERE it is. Had to dig.

andyfest · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:49 pm

ayah Wrote:

andyfest Wrote:

Free-will means God's not completely in control and destiny means there's nothing we can do and, therefore, can't really be blamed for anything. I can't make up my mind which makes more sense but I'm still studying it and learning a lot.

free-will has you leading the ncaa tournament pool so i'd stick with that.

Ha ha! Maybe I was desined to make those picks...

tehobner · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:48 pm **Posts:** 4479

andyfest Wrote:

Free-will means God's not completely in control and destiny means there's nothing we can do and, therefore, can't really be blamed for anything. I can't make up my mind which makes more sense but I'm still studying it and learning a lot.

I don't know what you've been huffin but there ain't no such thing as goddd.

Prince of Darkness · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:41 am **Posts:** 11048

Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:

Fu Wrote:

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!

THERE it is. Had to dig.

What if something happens to you and you had no choice in the matter at all?

andyfest · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:54 pm

MEGA Wrote:

andyfest Wrote:

Free-will means God's not completely in control and destiny means there's nothing we can do and, therefore, can't really be blamed for anything. I can't make up my mind which makes more sense but I'm still studying it and learning a lot.

I don't know what you've been huffin but there ain't no such thing as goddd.

Thanks! Now I don't have to worry about it anymore!

Cap'n Squirrgle · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:55 pm

Prince of Darkness Wrote:

Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:

Fu Wrote:

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice!

THERE it is. Had to dig.

What if something happens to you and you had no choice in the matter at all?

According to Geddy, you may still have made a choice.

OPA! · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:55 pm

I don't think it's our destiny to get hit by a car because some idiot was drinking and driving.

tehobner · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:48 pm **Posts:** 4479

nah it was just his destiny to run you over. circumstance is what killed you. i'm sure that's written in an old book somewhere and therefore correct.

OPA! · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:59 pm

MEGA Wrote:

nah it was just his destiny to run you over. circumstance is what killed you. i'm sure that's written in an old book somewhere and therefore correct.

I wouldn't know. I never read that book.

tehobner · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:48 pm **Posts:** 4479

Well shit, whatever one you read first must be the truth then.

Senator LooGAR · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:45 pm

Radcliffe Wrote:

Let an elder atheist help you out here.

God has been conceived of as an omniscient eternal being. For an omniscient eternal being there can be no such thing as past, present, or future. For such a being everything happens /happened at exactly the same time (and that time is called eternity). Therefore, although this god fellow may already know your destiny, he doesn't necessarily control it. So free will can exist along with the Christian god.

Now, as far as all the stuff like god changing his mind, god arguing with angels, etcetera you're on your own.

Isn't this what Slaughterhouse 5 is about, Mr. Vonnegut?

And the fact that you can't resolve this question is basically my turning point with religion. I asked, they couldn't answer.

Great debate, though.

Elvis Fu · **Posted:** Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:16 pm

Billzebub Wrote:

When do we get to hold the rattlesnakes?

After the Captain turns off the seatbelt sign, and you are free to move about the cabin.

Prince of Darkness · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:41 am **Posts:** 11048

Well that was fun, and got me through the last day of testing.

Now what can I do to get me through tomorrow?

Besides whisky and shrooms.

Sketch · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:37 pm

Damnit, I missed all of this. I'm chiming in anyway.

My personal belief is that there is something is ultimately bigger than us but also part of us at the same time. I don't have a strong sense concerning its omniscience, omnipresence, all-lovingness, or even sentience. I do believe, though, that it's the dominant power in the Universe. I choose to call it God and believe that every major scipture has insight about its properties.

A argument for both: destiny at a macro level, free will at a micro level. It is possible that we all are meant for something in this life. It's also possible that the alginment of our life choices to that destiny determines our current level of happiness. Think about it. When everything's cool, we keep on keepin' on and stay happy. When something in our life happens that we don't like, we either start making changes or stay miserable. While sadness/anger are usually accepted by those who are emotionally healthy, happiness is most often the preferred state of being.

Other points:
If scriptures are useless because they are old, why do people still find value is Shakespeare?

If you disagree with one verse or a set of verses in scripture, does that makes the entire scripture false or useless?

Poll for the religious.

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