when will those damn Irish give up their flags? Its ri-goddamn-diculous.

the flag issue is completely retarded. Especially because white people love their fucking flags as much as anyone else (as Rodney pointed out). I love that melting pot vs. "speak english motherfucker" mentality....






I actually just spit beer onto my monitor. that has never happened to me before.

I've been saving that one for the right opportunity.

Taxes: Most pay taxes. Those undocumented who do not pay taxes are working jobs "off the books", often below minimum wage. They pay taxes without being able to collect either unemployment (that they contribute to), nor social security when they retire. They are propping up the shaky infrastruture of social security.

Flags: People love the tricolors on St. Pat's Day. Swedish flag decals all over Minnesota cars, no one says anything. Give me a break.

Sending back money to a homeland: Israel was built by checks signed in New York.

Here are some viewpoints from students in one of my programs, adults learning English:

—I’m sorry, but I really don’t like Bill HR4437. It’s unfair. We’re not criminals. We came here to work to survive, respect the laws, and be a good person.
—I think HR4437 is a stupid proposition because people who come to this country just want to have a better life. The are not criminals ! or terrorists. They are workers.
—The proposition is very bad because it affects a lot of people who only work here in different places. Their goals are only to work hard and to have a better kind of life for themselves and their families.
—I think Bill HR4437 is unfair because immigrants work hard in the fields and restaurants, and in construction. And they pay taxes, support the economy and ll that stuff. But some people don’t recognize this and they treat us like criminals, and the only thing we do is work hard to live better and have a better future for our families.
—These are my feelings. I think HR4437 is not the right way to take us away from here. We are not bad people. Why don’t you look at the people who are natives of this country who don’t want to do these kinds of jobs that we are doing? This country is the biggest because we helped make it that way, and, in my opinion, it is too bad that you want to do this to us. Most o! f us have family in Mexico who are waiting for our help. Please don’t do this.
—We are workers, not killers! Are picks and shovels—weapons?
—Are we criminals just for working here illegally?
—I think that Bill HR4437 is not good for the people who are working hard in the field and other kinds of jobs because we only want to work for our families.

Here are excerpts from an essay class in a dropout recovery program:

Last week I was one of the many thousands of people marching for immigration rights all over the United States. We were expressing our freedom of speech and our pride of being immigrants… We were standing up to the new discriminating and evil law HR4437 that makes undocumented immigrants human felons and criminals. ... The bill is like some say unfair, racist, and inhumane. I am against it because I am a one in a million seeking peace and happiness for all. I marched for my family and myself and everyone who has ever worked hard for something good in life and has not given up. ­- Patty

I can’t believe that they can’t see that without immigrants none of the agriculture in the U.S. would be possible. There are so many white people (excuse the racist word) that won’t even step a foot in a field to see how hard they work, so others can eat and be able to feed their families. – Leonel

When I was marching last week, I was proud of myself, because I want to support the immigrants and I always honor to help other people. Cesar Chavez is one person who I admire, because he fought for his rights, but without violence. What I see is that if he could do it, so can we do it too! - Rosa

I personally feel that if this bill is approved a lot of my loved ones would have to leave before they get caught because I wouldn’t want them to be put in jail…. When I know they have not done harm to anyone or anything. The only reason they are here is because they are looking for a better future. – (name withheld)

I marched because I don’t think we should have borders. Why can’t we just live in peace! This is just an act of racism. Why should immigrants have to leave? I mean, wasn’t this a part of Mexico before it was America?.... It’s a different story if they’re criminals, but if they are hard working people trying to support their families, why not let them stay? - Felisa

This makes me so sad that the INS might ruin my community. But what I was most excited about was that there are some cool senators like McCain and Kennedy. These senators are trying to help and I appreciate what they are doing for immigration in the US. – Lysandra

How about let’s put Bush in the fields? - Natalie

Being part of the protest against HR4437 that took place last week here in the City of made realize that we can still count on each other when it comes to difficult times. I think that this piece of legislation, HR 4437, is a racist law against people who come to the US … but I felt proud that on March 25th, 2006, Latinos showed how strong we can be as a whole to fight for our freedom and rights as a people living and working hard in the United States. – Andreina

We will make our voices be heard! “I’m not a criminal.” We will prove that by staying in school, bringing up our school’s scores, showing everyone that we belong here, and achieving what we can. … if they (Senate and President) want to close all the borders, why not close the Canadian border too? - Brenda

We are workers, not criminals. ­– Jaime

From what I've heard, Mexico itself has one of the more extreme anti-immigration policies in the world, intended to keep out the "undesirables" to their south.

I'm not sure what should be done, but hypocrisy abounds on this issue.

maybe you read me wrong. i'm sayin' that there are plenty of African Americans living legally in this country that would gladly take some of the jobs that illegal immigrants now do.

has nothing to do with hating blacks. has everything to do with seeing how letting illegals work in this country might effect their lives.

yeah, we know you're pretty easily amused:wanker:

Two separate issues. Because Singapore is a repressive regime, do we punish Singaporean immigrants for what is done in their place of birth?

I've thought about this off an on, and while I'm not finished, I think I've pretty well come to a stance I can feel comfortable supporting and believing in. It's not perfect, but it feels Right. I don't feel like writing out a whole essay, so I'm going to just toss out some thoughts.

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I think the big push against Illegal Immigration is more hinged on Immigration than Illegality. No one is going to be raiding city neighborhoods to send back the Italian or Irish illegals. It's gonna be the brown people.

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Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes is a crock of shit. If you're making $5.15/hour, 40 hours a week for a whole year, that's a whopping $10,712. I'm not totally familiar with IRS tax brackets, but I bet you don't owe anything due to such a low income. Also, don't forget sales and excise taxes. There are plenty of those to go around.

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Fuck a wall. If you want to build a wall, let the politicians who vote for it lay the brick and mortar, not immigrants workers.

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English is not the official language of this country. Yes, it is traditional, but that can be changed by the will of the people. If we take on enough immigrants from the south, and we become a bilingual or even Spanish speaking society in 50, 100, 300 years, so be it. That's a whole lot less horrible than slavery, which used to be A-OK.

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Harry might be able to shed some light on this, but it made sense to me. The "Speak English, motherfucker" argument is especially weak since a majority of immigrants don't eschew learning English, but avoid it for legal or practical reasons.

At 30 years old, I'm not as equipped to learn a new tongue like a child. It's gonna take time. It's gonna be even harder when I'm busting my ass in a low-paying job all week to feed my family. It's gonna take even more time to find resources to learn English where I don't fear being arrested and/or deported due to my status, or if I am legitimate, I may be pressured to exposure my friends, neighbors or family members who are here illegally.

To first generation immigrants, they are taking one for the team to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to [them]selves and [their] Posterity", to borrow from the Founding Fathers. Learning English takes a back seat to planting those seeds.

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If you make all the illegal felons, how the hell do you round them all up and arrest them, and then where the hell do you put them?

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This one is still pretty sketchy, but a thought. Maybe we should outsource more jobs to Mexico and Central America. It's going to happen anyway, why not give some of these people some increase in economic opportunity without such a risk to their lives and limbs? If they come here for opportunity and prosperity, why not deliver some to them?

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Another thought, not really fleshed out. What about some sort of phased-in citizenship system? Punish the employers who hire them off the books, but give them an out as well.

If they need illegal help that they were previously under minimum wage, give the employer the opportunity to register the immigrant (on the path to citizenship or citizenship program) while paying him somewhere between minimum wage and the peanuts he was previously getting. Once the the immigrant completes the citizenship program and becomes and Official One of Us, he gets minimum wage or more, like the rest of us folks.

If the employer chooses to sidestep that process, throw the book at them. This way, you could get immigrants into a system to aid with citizenship (oh my god Fu is advocating government bureaucracy?!?), and still allow some employers access to a cheap labor supply. Though this seems like government sanctioned exploitation, it may be, but I figure that these jobs are going to be filled by exploited labor anyway, so they might as well get something out of it.

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Feel free to start punching holes. I'm sure there are plenty. Just rambling here, but I don't see that these brown people are worth less than any American citizen.

"This one is still pretty sketchy, but a thought. Maybe we should outsource more jobs to Mexico and Central America. It's going to happen anyway, why not give some of these people some increase in economic opportunity without such a risk to their lives and limbs? If they come here for opportunity and prosperity, why not deliver some to them?"

fu - this is going to be happening very soon. i know the large tech company I look for is strengthening ties to latin america. next step - opening a factory down there. we are one of the few big tech companies with a factor in central america (Costa Rica) but I expect us to be in Brazil and maybe somewhere else fairly soon.

i pretty much agree with everyone but Dalen and simpleton here. lou dobbs is a fucking idiot. i can understand some of the security concerns but most people are using that as a proxy for the arguments they cant really make in public. trying to stop people from coming across the border is about as useless a proposition as the war on drugs.

Fu... I am ready to adopt you.

Re: wanting to learn English. Immigrants are rabid to learn English. Thousands here work all day in the sun picking strawberries and rush to come to school, without dinner, in the evenings, to acquire more English.

A common joke among them:

What do you call someone who speaks two languages?

Bilingual

What do you call someone who speaks one language?

American

So Mexico is a dictatorship in which the ruler crushes the earnest wishes of the people to open their southern borders?

that's interesting.

2 of my favorite restaurants here in Palm Beach happen to be Mexican. i frequent one of them at least 2 times a week, and have been doing so for close to 2 years. Not only do the waitresses not speak English [4 of them have been there the entire time i've been going], but none of the patrons [80% or so are Mexican] i've approached have spoken English, or even attempt to speak it.

I wonder why they're not rabid to learn it.

I missed your point. Mexico has a very repressive government who has draconian responses to undocumented immigrants along the Guatemalan and Belizean borders.

There is a progressive political movement in Mexico, (Obrador who is running for President now and has a good chance of winning), which seeks mitigate some pretty violent practices.

That Mexico is extreme in its immigration policies doesn't, to me, justify our own extremes.

Dude, they are talking English behind your back. They say as you enter the restaurant, here comes that racist americano again that we always put mocos in his burrito.

yeah, of course, insults. i didn't expect you to possibly see my point about your poor, poor illegals.

No I can see your point. The pressure of the rapidly increasing immigration from Latin America to our country is changing the demographics very quickly. Large communities build where Spanish is spoken only, and non-Spanish speakers feel uncomfortable, that some basic entitlement is in jeopardy, that The Other is replacing Us.

I understand and am sympathetic to these discomforts, and my intention was not to offend you, rather make you laugh.

These conversations need to occur, and those of us who value the "poor, poor illegals" need to speak in ways that people like you can hear. We are Americans.... we can make this work.

I recommend a couple of books, Brown Tide Rising: Metaphors of Latinos in Contemporary American Public Discourse, Otto Santa Ana... and Remaking the American Mainstream: Assimilation and Contemporary Immigration, Richard Alba & Victor Nee.

Wrong. It has nothing to do with them "replacing us". But you constantly hear about how "they" want to be taken seriously in this country, and you have people such as yourself say that "they" are trying oh so hard. Well it's not evident.

Come to my school. See the thousands studying at night. See their bodies injured by manual labor, backs injured from stooping, skin cancers from years working in the sun, chronic lung disease from pesticides... and hear them talk about their hopes for their children. How they need to learn English to help their children with homework.

This sounds like Dickensian bathos... but truly my friend, these people work so hard. The crisis is in the second and third generation who are trapped in poverty...

I will buy you a plane ticket to come to California to meet the thousands who study in my school.

fair play Harry, and respect for doing what you do for them. seriously.

i understand you're passionate about this, and don't mean to offend you. it's just that i also see a different side much of the time.

I can attest to this as well as understand that the next generation generally becomes "americanized.' I think South Florida's situation is a different experience in that not only is there a large immigrant population(illegal), but also a large and long standing succesful group of latin americans residing here. And as long as the local economy is stable more money and more numbers of people are flowing in. Being bilingual is virtually a must on day to day dealings. This is not a complaint, mind you, just a statement of how it is.

I always thought a vast majority of the latino immigrant population in South Florida was Dominican, Puerto Rican and Cuban. Are you sure these people aren't from there and serving "Mexican" food?
Also, I love going to mexican owned restaurants in Norfolk and Omaha, where most of the clientele and staff do not speak english around me. I just tend to think they only need to ask me what I want in English and the rest of the time they can ignore me. I think some of the restaurants in South Omaha feel like you are coming into their turf and it is up to you to make the effort.
I've seen lots of people initially start speaking in spanish at first and then switching to english for the white patron who frequents the restaurant more than I do.
I just don't think they trust you that much or assume it doesn't bother you.

i wanted to work at a mexican restaurant or maybe as a roofer, but i had to go into computers because that's the only job i could get that wasn't already held by a mexican.

dude why do you hate Indian people?

Curry's got 'im on the run...