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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:14 pm 
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frostingspoon
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It's easier to Bizn'oMonger overseas, yes. No 2 ways about it. But the popular conception that every larger company who offshores is there to light the homeless on fire and eat babies is just as slippery a trap as any other. Sometimes the guy/gal in charge still has a conscience and just needs to stay competitive.

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[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:15 pm 
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you dont even want to know about russia. the company i work for does a lot of business there and some of the stuff that goes down is unbelievable.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:15 pm 
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harry Wrote:
This guy has crack Wrote:
my bad man, i saw the suit and i panicked. still, it sounds like you don't like him because he makes money. Their corporate strategy is that they try to dominate markets? no shit? because that's pretty much what business is, right?



This is the myth of "Adam Smith" capitalism that we suck up to in this country blindly. (By the way, Smith always calculated how many impoverished people it took to support the creation of a wealthy man... the goal).

In a world of post-state-capitalism, where multinational hegemonies crush the entrepreneurial sprit and manipulate markets for the good of a few, the nostalgic and dishonest idea that "business" is about this free market competition is a load of dangerous shit.
but simply because you decided that there should be a morality to business (or government for that matter) doesn't make it so. You're attaching a values system to a set of rules that doesn't include them. you may as well say that every american baseball team has the right to win their own World Series.

and that "crush the entrepreneurial spirit" nonsense might make you sleep more soundly but it has almost no place in a discussion about business. Competition is too hard in some arena of business? get better or leave the arena. I'll conceede that people should have to stick to doing things that are legal but that's about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:16 pm 
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frostingspoon
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rparis74 Wrote:
you dont even want to know about russia. the company i work for does a lot of business there and some of the stuff that goes down is unbelievable.


Some pakistani cohorts here tell tales of procuring business deals with underage hookers as the NORM. Like buying a box of bagels before a meeting.

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[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:17 pm 
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A True Aristocrat of Freedom

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Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
It's easier to Bizn'oMonger overseas, yes. No 2 ways about it. But the popular conception that every larger company who offshores is there to light the homeless on fire and eat babies is just as slippery a trap as any other. Sometimes the guy/gal in charge still has a conscience and just needs to stay competitive.


hehe...you sound like the dude I work for right now...get out of school, work for a real company, and then tell me how you feel. If the argument is expand business in a crooked manner, or lose market share while doing the right thing, they will ALWAYS take the former. Nature abhors a vacuum, etc.

And Rod, yeah, Russia = KILLING PEOPLE TO DO BUSINESS.

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:18 pm 
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A True Aristocrat of Freedom

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This guy has crack Wrote:
harry Wrote:
This guy has crack Wrote:
my bad man, i saw the suit and i panicked. still, it sounds like you don't like him because he makes money. Their corporate strategy is that they try to dominate markets? no shit? because that's pretty much what business is, right?



This is the myth of "Adam Smith" capitalism that we suck up to in this country blindly. (By the way, Smith always calculated how many impoverished people it took to support the creation of a wealthy man... the goal).

In a world of post-state-capitalism, where multinational hegemonies crush the entrepreneurial sprit and manipulate markets for the good of a few, the nostalgic and dishonest idea that "business" is about this free market competition is a load of dangerous shit.
but simply because you decided that there should be a morality to business (or government for that matter) doesn't make it so. You're attaching a values system to a set of rules that doesn't include them. you may as well say that every american baseball team has the right to win their own World Series.

and that "crush the entrepreneurial spirit" nonsense might make you sleep more soundly but it has almost no place in a discussion about business. Competition is too hard in some arena of business? get better or leave the arena. I'll conceede that people should have to stick to doing things that are legal but that's about it.


I see what yer doin here, Crack...and I like it...you need to fucking post more these days.

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:21 pm 
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frostingspoon
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Senator NMI LooGAR Wrote:
Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
It's easier to Bizn'oMonger overseas, yes. No 2 ways about it. But the popular conception that every larger company who offshores is there to light the homeless on fire and eat babies is just as slippery a trap as any other. Sometimes the guy/gal in charge still has a conscience and just needs to stay competitive.


hehe...you sound like the dude I work for right now...get out of school, work for a real company, and then tell me how you feel. If the argument is expand business in a crooked manner, or lose market share while doing the right thing, they will ALWAYS take the former. Nature abhors a vacuum, etc.


We don't live in a world of absolutes. The correct If/Then statement may be "If you want to work for someone you respect, Then you may need to dig around a lot longer before jumping into the first decent paying job you get offered." It's not impossible. It's hard as shit, but I don't believe it's impossible, any more than I believe you have anything to teach me about "the real world" homey.

I've done my time. And I have no desire to enter into a pissing contest about resume's.

_________________
[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:23 pm 
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frostingspoon

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you may call me naive but i honestly dont think that the vast majority of businesses are offshoring so they can break the law and get away with murder - they are doing it to lower costs, gets closer to growth markets, and make the shareholders happy. thats it.

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dumpjack: "I haven't liked anything he's done so far, but I'll still listen."


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:24 pm 
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A True Aristocrat of Freedom

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:46 am
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Location: a worn-out debauchee and drivelling sot
Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
Senator NMI LooGAR Wrote:
Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
It's easier to Bizn'oMonger overseas, yes. No 2 ways about it. But the popular conception that every larger company who offshores is there to light the homeless on fire and eat babies is just as slippery a trap as any other. Sometimes the guy/gal in charge still has a conscience and just needs to stay competitive.


hehe...you sound like the dude I work for right now...get out of school, work for a real company, and then tell me how you feel. If the argument is expand business in a crooked manner, or lose market share while doing the right thing, they will ALWAYS take the former. Nature abhors a vacuum, etc.


We don't live in a world of absolutes. The correct If/Then statement may be "If you want to work for someone you respect, Then you may need to dig around a lot longer before jumping into the first decent paying job you get offered." It's not impossible. It's hard as shit, but I don't believe it's impossible, any more than I believe you have anything to teach me about "the real world" homey.

I've done my time. And I have no desire to enter into a pissing contest about resume's.


Resume comparison ain't what I mean, but you sound bright eyed and bushy tailed.
I guess you could work for a company with morals, but where's the fun in that?

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:25 pm 
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frostingspoon
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rparis74 Wrote:
you may call me naive but i honestly dont think that the vast majority of businesses are offshoring so they can break the law and get away with murder - they are doing it to lower costs, gets closer to growth markets, and make the shareholders happy. thats it.


This is abolutely where it starts, and generally ends. You're not naive, nor too jaded. Truth is in the middle somewheres.

_________________
[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:29 pm 
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Go Platinum

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The truth is that life is capable of dichotimies, which hasn't found it's way much into this thread. Duke students are either priveldged white assholes bringing down the glorious sport with them or innocent stupid college guys caught up in a terrible situation. :roll:

_________________
I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:29 pm 
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A True Aristocrat of Freedom

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Location: a worn-out debauchee and drivelling sot
Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
rparis74 Wrote:
you may call me naive but i honestly dont think that the vast majority of businesses are offshoring so they can break the law and get away with murder - they are doing it to lower costs, gets closer to growth markets, and make the shareholders happy. thats it.


This is abolutely where it starts, and generally ends. You're not naive, nor too jaded. Truth is in the middle somewheres.


But, if playing ball in those countries is made easier by rape/muder/child labor/cia front companies or slavery, then most companies will do those things to lower the bottom line, NOT let the workers dictate to them like American-style unions.

So i guess we get to intent vs. unseen by-product of doing business.

[img][650:430]http://contrapunctus.net/league/photo/pcd4096/047-dung-cart.3.jpg[/img]

Image

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:30 pm 
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Acid Grandfather
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This guy has crack Wrote:
harry Wrote:
This guy has crack Wrote:
my bad man, i saw the suit and i panicked. still, it sounds like you don't like him because he makes money. Their corporate strategy is that they try to dominate markets? no shit? because that's pretty much what business is, right?



This is the myth of "Adam Smith" capitalism that we suck up to in this country blindly. (By the way, Smith always calculated how many impoverished people it took to support the creation of a wealthy man... the goal).

In a world of post-state-capitalism, where multinational hegemonies crush the entrepreneurial sprit and manipulate markets for the good of a few, the nostalgic and dishonest idea that "business" is about this free market competition is a load of dangerous shit.
but simply because you decided that there should be a morality to business (or government for that matter) doesn't make it so. You're attaching a values system to a set of rules that doesn't include them. you may as well say that every american baseball team has the right to win their own World Series.

and that "crush the entrepreneurial spirit" nonsense might make you sleep more soundly but it has almost no place in a discussion about business. Competition is too hard in some arena of business? get better or leave the arena. I'll conceede that people should have to stick to doing things that are legal but that's about it.


Well... most apologists for "the free market cures all ills" (or a set of rules as you call it) and privatization addicts include the primacy of the entrepreneurial spirit in their arguments. Both Adam Smith and Marx sign on to this. And "all we need is to get government out of the way" and the survical-of-the-fittest invocations of "businessmen" who laugh at the weepy bleeding hearts... are arguments built on sand. The free market no longer exists.... and morality, ethics are needed in the response to this century's economic realities or we are all going to fucking die from the glut and gamble of "businessmen" who take excessive pride in their cool and cut-throat reason.

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Last edited by harry on Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:33 pm 
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frostingspoon

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Senator NMI LooGAR Wrote:
Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
rparis74 Wrote:
you may call me naive but i honestly dont think that the vast majority of businesses are offshoring so they can break the law and get away with murder - they are doing it to lower costs, gets closer to growth markets, and make the shareholders happy. thats it.


This is abolutely where it starts, and generally ends. You're not naive, nor too jaded. Truth is in the middle somewheres.


But, if playing ball in those countries is made easier by rape/muder/child labor/cia front companies or slavery, then most companies will do those things to lower the bottom line, NOT let the workers dictate to them like American-style unions.

So i guess we get to intent vs. unseen by-product of doing business.

[img][650:430]http://contrapunctus.net/league/photo/pcd4096/047-dung-cart.3.jpg[/img]

Image


in most countries where we operate, the employment protections, privary rules, and union activity are a lot stronger than here.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:36 pm 
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frostingspoon
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Senator NMI LooGAR Wrote:
I see what yer doin here, Crack...and I like it...you need to fucking post more these days.
sadly i value my job too much, although you wouldn't know it by looking at me leave at 2 today.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:38 pm 
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A True Aristocrat of Freedom

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rparis74 Wrote:
Senator NMI LooGAR Wrote:
Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
rparis74 Wrote:
you may call me naive but i honestly dont think that the vast majority of businesses are offshoring so they can break the law and get away with murder - they are doing it to lower costs, gets closer to growth markets, and make the shareholders happy. thats it.


This is abolutely where it starts, and generally ends. You're not naive, nor too jaded. Truth is in the middle somewheres.


But, if playing ball in those countries is made easier by rape/muder/child labor/cia front companies or slavery, then most companies will do those things to lower the bottom line, NOT let the workers dictate to them like American-style unions.

So i guess we get to intent vs. unseen by-product of doing business.

[img][650:430]http://contrapunctus.net/league/photo/pcd4096/047-dung-cart.3.jpg[/img]

Image


in most countries where we operate, the employment protections, privary rules, and union activity are a lot stronger than here.


Right, in Scandanavia, Ireland, England, France and Germany...what about the wild wests of the world?

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:40 pm 
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frostingspoon

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we get a lot more headaches in asia than you would ever imagine. tons of unionization threats, workplace protections, government interference. things are suprisingly easy here (with CA and MA being a little more difficult)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:48 pm 
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Failed Reunion
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rparis74 Wrote:
"This one is still pretty sketchy, but a thought. Maybe we should outsource more jobs to Mexico and Central America. It's going to happen anyway, why not give some of these people some increase in economic opportunity without such a risk to their lives and limbs? If they come here for opportunity and prosperity, why not deliver some to them?"

fu - this is going to be happening very soon. i know the large tech company I look for is strengthening ties to latin america. next step - opening a factory down there. we are one of the few big tech companies with a factor in central america (Costa Rica) but I expect us to be in Brazil and maybe somewhere else fairly soon.


i think this is what's going to have to happen. america will have to work to strengthen job opportunities in mexico, central america, and south america. otherwise there will be an unending flow of immigrants to the usa. it's becoming clearer that the idea of a national border is ludicrous. i wonder if there will be some "bloc" or federation that eventually develops b/t the countries in this hemisphere to start to bring jobs to those seeking them in the usa. i can't see a wall doing much of anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:53 pm 
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A True Aristocrat of Freedom

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rparis74 Wrote:
tons of unionization threats, workplace protections, government interference.


All code for GIMME A BRIBE, HONKY!!

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:56 pm 
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rparis74 Wrote:
tons of unionization threats, workplace protections, government interference.


... and these are BAD? (see above description of the blindnesses of true-believers of the free marketplace)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:57 pm 
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frostingspoon

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no they are good in some cases. i was just point out that not all business offshore to avoid legal hassles here in the US. the major driver is the cost of labor.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:00 pm 
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harry Wrote:
In a world of post-state-capitalism, where multinational hegemonies crush the entrepreneurial sprit and manipulate markets for the good of a few, the nostalgic and dishonest idea that "business" is about this free market competition is a load of dangerous shit.



well said, harry. i make this point often.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:02 pm 
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rparis74 Wrote:
no they are good in some cases. i was just point out that not all business offshore to avoid legal hassles here in the US. the major driver is the cost of labor.


Noted.

Which returns us to the beginnng of the thread... the House immigration bill will implode the Republican presidential electoral plurality because the party of business just tried to screw business. And it hurts.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:20 pm 
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frostingspoon
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harry Wrote:
rparis74 Wrote:
no they are good in some cases. i was just point out that not all business offshore to avoid legal hassles here in the US. the major driver is the cost of labor.


Noted.

Which returns us to the beginnng of the thread... the House immigration bill will implode the Republican presidential electoral plurality because the party of business just tried to screw business. And it hurts.


I've been wondering how they balance the "cheap labor = $$" side with the "open borders = turrists will win" side. Because they certainly cater to both. I'll just wait for them to tell me, I guess.

_________________
[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:26 pm 
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Also, remember they were here first. Matter of fact, guys like Winfield Scott and Zachary Taylor became heroes for taking a big ass chunk of Mexico that we had tried to buy twice before, only to be rejected by the Mexican government.

I think it's funny that Harry & I are in almost total agreement. He loses me on the socialism part, though, imagine that.

Send our Levis factories south—didn't anyone see Three Amigos? Send some tech businesses south. Give 'em work!

I see the racist overtones of keeping them in country to do the shit work. That's where the motivation for my plan of gradual decrease in exploitation comes in. They are going to subject themselves to exploited positions due to the relative prosperity compared to home, and employers will continue to eat that shit up.

So you meet halfway. If they were working for $3.00 and hour and minimum wage is $5.15, pay them $4.25 at minimum, and you must also register them and the family with a new Immigration Agency. Make it a 7 year plan. For seven years, they not only make the slightly higher wage but have access to certain training & educational programs, so at the end they can either become citizens or go back home.

When they become citizens, they must be paid the legal minimum wage, not the compromise wage. If they employer decides to ditch a guy he's had for 7 years because now the wage is too high, at least the worker is a Legal Citizen now and passed through a 7 year program that gives him better tools to go out and find a better living than he would have found on his own hiding in sheds to avoid detection.

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