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 Post subject: Are we living in a relatively 'conservative' age?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:07 pm 
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I'm doing an essay on social conservatism in the post-cold war West.

I was just wondering what you guys' views are on the topic. Are the general youth today more conservative? No one seems to rebel against anything anymore, and I want to find out why.

Thatcher was probably more reasonable than Bush, yet Thatcherism influenced much of punk culture, while Bush hasn't really influenced much outside the realm of politics. Sure, Green Day made that one record, and Billy Bragg did a couple of oil-related songs, but nothing of much merit has been produced lately that seems to be a direct reaction to the global climate.

Has all this positive parenting stuff that seemed to rise in popularity over the last decade or two created a generation of accepting, passively docile kids?

The youth just doesn't really seem 'rebellious' or 'united' these days.

The only 'rebellion' i see is of no political significance: kids running away, drugs, young sex, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:15 pm 
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I think there's more of a general attitude of dissent more than ever lately, at least in this country. Not that it's necessarily coming from the youth, though. I'm not sure about the climate of music. I feel like with a few exceptions, punk rock now is a bunch of pussies who are too busy getting bird tattoos or videotaping themselves jacking off to make truly pissed off music. at least that's not pissed off at how angst-ridden they are.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:19 pm 
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I think we are living in the era of polarization. I don't really think we are becoming that conservative, it is just that the Reaganite children of the 80's are now reaching the age where they are a political force along with the older Christian Conservatives.
Once the more liberal Clintonian children of the 90's reach their late 30's, you'll see the pendulum shift back to a more centrist point.
I think the only real shift has been from traditionally liberal issues to more conservative issues during elections, although the conservatives really used the liberal issues to rise to power.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:21 pm 
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It has to do with relative affluence, lack of struggle for basic necessity and indulgence. In some ways more conservative and in some more liberal. I think one of the things that goes on is, people are able to outwardly act as people always have inre: drugs, alcohol and sex...it is acceptable to fuh whomever you want amongst consenting adults. People have always done it, just not on the innernets.

I also think that religious conservatism is a by-product of millenial angst: subconsciously everyone thought the world was gonna end, and now many of the happenings in the world just keep perpetuating that belief.

I doubt any of this answers your question, but what're you gonna do?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:28 pm 
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I’m sorry to invoke Godwin’s Law, but when Nazi war criminals were being tried after the Second World War, those who ‘did nothing’ or ‘turned a blind eye’ were often considered just as bad as those who committed the actual executions. Would it then not be entirely unreasonable to suggest that perhaps many civilians of the Western World are accountable – to a degree – for allowing any of their warmongering leaders to stay in power? I don’t mean to place Australian/American/British citizens side by side with the elite members of the Schutzstaffel, but the exaggerated moral comparison bears some truths.

Realistically, if someone united the people of the West and wanted to overthrow the governments in power, i think it would be entirely possible. Its been done in numerous parts of history before. I find it interesting that the people actually do have a whole lot more power than they think, but never exercise it. As a collective, there would be few things more intimidating than the majority of any given population revolting. Military strength means nothing in the hypothetical event of Western civil unrest; none of the 1st world governments would ever flex their military muscle against their own people.

Obviously, people aren't as abhorred by the actions of their governments as they let on. Sure, theres people signing and making petitions, but when has a petition ever solved a political problem?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:29 pm 
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I forgot to add that the reason you see less "rebelliousness" or political activism in the youth of today is that the conservatives in power did a masterful job of turning off young voters with hateful rhetoric and making it look unpatriotic and/or immoral to voice an opinion that is different from the "status quo".
The media has also done a disservice to political activism in young people by making every issue a sound bite. The news that was the focus of the 60's-80's has been replaced by OJ, Natalie Holoway, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:32 pm 
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amgl Wrote:
Would it then not be entirely unreasonable to suggest that perhaps many civilians of the Western World are accountable – to a degree – for allowing any of their warmongering leaders to stay in power?


that's funny.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:33 pm 
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Senator NMI LooGAR Wrote:
It has to do with relative affluence, lack of struggle for basic necessity and indulgence.


Bingo. Shit ain't that bad, so there's not a whole lot to rebel against.

That's not to say there aren't problems, but they aren't the same as 1968.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:37 pm 
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Also, it depends on what you compare this "Conservative Age" with. If you go back 150 years, I doubt it looks quite so conservative.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:38 pm 
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As far as music being affected py politics, Neil Young is finishing or just recently finished an album that is one big complaint about Bush.

In relation to the other stuff, I have wondered about this too. Not in relation to conservativism. That term means something different to me in the U.S. I think than how you mean it. I have wondered why there aren't really any revolutions on a grand scale in the "West". My initial thoughts about this is that there is more patience and hope that things will change according to how the system is set up to allow it. Also, I think that you won't see any type of revolution (violent overthrow type) until a Western government truly oppresses someone. Although there are plenty of "oppressions" of sorts within the realm of the western world, I don't think you'll see a large violent revolution about something until laws are passed that significantly affect the ability to live by one power on to its subordinates. I am not sure if this is very clear, but I have not really clarified much of it in my own head.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:42 pm 
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Looking at America, there's less of a need for rebellion because half of the country agrees with you. Look at the last two elections. Regardless of which side of the political fence you're on, chances are the people you've surrounded yourself with and, to a lesser extent, were raised by see things the way you do.

Also, it's been done to death. Protest songs aren't interesting or new like they were in the 50s and 60s, orginized protests all look the same and the only people who pay attention to them are the one's who agree with the protest. The others just ignore it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:44 pm 
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Dalen Wrote:
amgl Wrote:
Would it then not be entirely unreasonable to suggest that perhaps many civilians of the Western World are accountable – to a degree – for allowing any of their warmongering leaders to stay in power?


that's funny.


I don't find it that humorous.

If the Left is gonna whinge about living in a Right wing society, then until their government is Left, they are responsible for their own dilemmas.

The people have this untapped power over their government that they never use, because they never htink of it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:44 pm 
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amgl Wrote:
The people have this untapped power over their government that they never use, because they never htink of it.


Or maybe it's not bad enough to change.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:46 pm 
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Hegel-Oh's Wrote:
As far as music being affected py politics, Neil Young is finishing or just recently finished an album that is one big complaint about Bush.

In relation to the other stuff, I have wondered about this too. Not in relation to conservativism. That term means something different to me in the U.S. I think than how you mean it. I have wondered why there aren't really any revolutions on a grand scale in the "West". My initial thoughts about this is that there is more patience and hope that things will change according to how the system is set up to allow it. Also, I think that you won't see any type of revolution (violent overthrow type) until a Western government truly oppresses someone. Although there are plenty of "oppressions" of sorts within the realm of the western world, I don't think you'll see a large violent revolution about something until laws are passed that significantly affect the ability to live by one power on to its subordinates. I am not sure if this is very clear, but I have not really clarified much of it in my own head.


I wholeheartedly understand and agree.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:48 pm 
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Fu Wrote:
amgl Wrote:
The people have this untapped power over their government that they never use, because they never htink of it.


Or maybe it's not bad enough to change.


I'm not suggesting that the government is, but a lot of people seem to think so. I guess until the government violates and imposes on peoples' everyday lives, as opposed to just their moral beliefs and their conscience, nothing will happen.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:51 pm 
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amgl Wrote:
Fu Wrote:
amgl Wrote:
The people have this untapped power over their government that they never use, because they never htink of it.


Or maybe it's not bad enough to change.


I'm not suggesting that the government is, but a lot of people seem to think so. I guess until the government violates and imposes on peoples' everyday lives, as opposed to just their moral beliefs and their conscience, nothing will happen.


I think a lot of people you associate with may think so, but not anything resembling a majority. You seem to be having difficulty pocketing your own viewpoints away and looking at the whole picture here. It's like saying the people wanted Betamax but were too lazy to not pick up VHS.

People also like to say one thing and think another.

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 Post subject: Re: Are we living in a relatively 'conservative' age?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:58 pm 
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amgl Wrote:
Thatcher was probably more reasonable than Bush, yet Thatcherism influenced much of punk culture, while Bush hasn't really influenced much outside the realm of politics.



I suspect you're giving "punk" a little too much credit. First of all, Thatcher didn't become PM unitl 1979, well after punk had climaxed. Second, I would describe punk as an aesthetic rather than social rebellion. Punk, at least the "classic" punk for which the likes of The Damned and Pistols were the poster children, was about fashion and shock value. There have always been groups like The Clash and Stiff Little Fingers that infuse their music with a message, but I think they're the exception rather than the norm.

I also believe that youth today rebel just as much as did youth 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and 40 years ago. It may be difficult to recognize, but I think this is because you're looking for the rebellion in the way it appeared 30 years ago. What was once shock and an outside view has been acculturated, hence my neighbor's kid with the blue-dyed hair. He's not rebelling against anything, he's just striking a pose that is similar to that struck by probably 50% of his classmates.

Today's youth rebellion is probably wearing Bass Weejuns and a 100% cotton Oxford.

Are we more "conservative" today? Perhaps. We are generally wealthier, which tends to favor fiscal conservatism. I'm not so sure about "moral" conservatism--the dreaded "religious right". What is implied in this is that there is a well-defined schism in "conservatism"--fiscal/economic versus social/religious. I believe, and I hope, the former is growing--the latter can't die fast enough.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:02 pm 
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Fu Wrote:
amgl Wrote:
Fu Wrote:
amgl Wrote:
The people have this untapped power over their government that they never use, because they never htink of it.


Or maybe it's not bad enough to change.


I'm not suggesting that the government is, but a lot of people seem to think so. I guess until the government violates and imposes on peoples' everyday lives, as opposed to just their moral beliefs and their conscience, nothing will happen.


I think a lot of people you associate with may think so, but not anything resembling a majority. You seem to be having difficulty pocketing your own viewpoints away and looking at the whole picture here. It's like saying the people wanted Betamax but were too lazy to not pick up VHS.

People also like to say one thing and think another.


This has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats, or my viewpoints. I just thought it was an interesting notion that in a democracy, the fact is that the people actually do have a lot of power, but due to the nature of whatever society they live in, they just rarely exercise it.

Yeah, the people i hang around with do think so. The majority of Australians are actually against the involvement in the war in Iraq and the American government as a whole, but because the 'other' party (who say they are against playing grab-ass with America) is so lame and would fuck the country over in many other ways, we have to basically keep voting for the Liberals, who maintain a necessarily close relationship with what has essentially become our big brother.

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Last edited by Mick on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:07 pm 
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First let me say: some of you are some intelligent people, nice to associate with such a group.
Next, I recall that when I was younger (20's) and I lived in the states my friends would laugh off local elections. But I always felt that the local city council had more direct effect on my life (derived from me getting a ticket for throwing ball for my dog into townlake because the "dog park" creek was dry) Politics at all levels affect one's life, not just in D.C.

Complacency is the core issue, Loog's right... lack of struggle, Fu's right, people don't see it as bad enough to change. People are more self centered than ever now, and this ripples out across all facets of society.
See statements like: "My SUV's not going to change the climate." or "I'm a democrat in Georgia, my vote won't change any electoral"

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:10 pm 
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andyfest Wrote:
Also, it's been done to death. Protest songs aren't interesting or new like they were in the 50s and 60s, orginized protests all look the same and the only people who pay attention to them are the one's who agree with the protest. The others just ignore it.


bingo. it's the type of people that i've encountered at protests that keep me, somebody who is very much interested in politics and sympathetic to the aims of lots of protestors, from marching in the streets. i went to several anti-war protests in the run-up to iraq, and they obviously didn't help anything. the rambling, un-focused speeches by these ridiculously self-righteous activists didn't inspire or motivate me. and people can't ever seem to stay on topic. the last thing i need to hear is how the war on iraq is an example of the need for worker solidarity or insidious hetero-patriarchy or the rape of the environment. and these sort of arguments do nothing but preach to the choir, which is totally ineffective if the idea is to convince the people who don't already agree with you.
i just get sick of the utopian bullshit. we're never going to live in a world free from violence, the state will not be smashed, we will not form small self-governing autonomous collectives. no matter how broken you think the system is, the fact is that change is possible, and that reforms can be made that will concretely improve people's lives. thats why i'm a liberal rather than a radical: it's a no-brainer when the choice is between bad and slightly better. i just feel like a lot of these activists are more concerned with ideological purity than making somebody's life better.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:12 pm 
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druucifer Wrote:
i just feel like a lot of these activists are more concerned with ideological purity than making somebody's life better.


Hence my stated hatred for liberals.

Beachy -- well said...local politics influences more than you can ever imagine.

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I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:13 pm 
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amgl Wrote:
If the Left is gonna whinge about living in a Right wing society, then until their government is Left, they are responsible for their own dilemmas.

The people have this untapped power over their government that they never use, because they never htink of it.


I suspect that this is because there are enough people around who remember how shitty things were in the 70's--double digit inflation, double digit unemployment, skyrocketing marginal tax rates, etc.--who also remember how much better things got in 80's and into the 90's, that don't want to see a return to a leftist regime.

Cuba ain't exactly setting the world alight with it's brilliant economic and social model.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:16 pm 
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amgl Wrote:
This has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats, or my viewpoints. I just thought it was an interesting notion that in a democracy, the fact is that the people actually do have a lot of power, but due to the nature of whatever society they live in, they just rarely exercise it.


I believe in the principals of Jeffersonian Democracy. If it ain't working for us, dismantle it.

I think you are misjudging the exercise of their power. There are lots of state and local issues that are voted on every year through referenda, city council elections and state legislature elections. There's no need to overthrow the government because right now, revolution is built in. People do have a lot of power, but they don't exercise it to the extent you describe because they don't agree that things are in drastic need of an overhaul.

There are no issues so dominating and totally neglected by the current government that necessitate an overthrow. You may think they need to go, but the majority disagrees.

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 Post subject: Re: Are we living in a relatively 'conservative' age?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:27 pm 
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Billzebub of that ilk Wrote:
I also believe that youth today rebel just as much as did youth 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and 40 years ago. It may be difficult to recognize, but I think this is because you're looking for the rebellion in the way it appeared 30 years ago. What was once shock and an outside view has been acculturated, hence my neighbor's kid with the blue-dyed hair. He's not rebelling against anything, he's just striking a pose that is similar to that struck by probably 50% of his classmates.


Plus: kids rebel against the parent first, often society comes along for the ride. Right now, the parent is a baby boomer who has a comfortable place in life. the rebellion du jour is suburban kids emulating ghetto kids, this burns parents up! My little sister grew dreads, worships Tupac, talks in a deep hip hop vernacular...why? She was raised in Sonoma. Its a rebellion thing, plain and simple.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:32 pm 
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this has to do a lot with economics. at this point, everyone in the west believes in capitalism, and those who are developing are trying to emulate the principles of the system. economic policy is one of the biggest cleavages (i knew id get that word in somewhere!) between conservatives and progressives, and with that divide gone, there is less to separate the two groups. in adopting the conservative economic view, the world has become more conservative by accentuating their differences better than the progressives. this is, however, largely an american phenomenon. labour has won in britain by accentuating their centrist views, japan has shifted left in recent years, just about all of south america has shifted progressive, and there is still a home for communism in many places in africa.


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