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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:55 am 
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I didn't have internet access this weekend, which might have been a good thing seeing some of the post here after the US game.
The Americans were robbed. They had one momentary lapse in the game where they allowed Italy to score, but the rest of the time they dominated the Italians. The Americans should have played a man up most of the game without any bad calls. There is no way Mastroeni deserved a red card. He might have been asking for a Yellow, but most likely just deserved a foul called on him. His cleats didn't seem to be that up or pointed directly at the players shin and he wasn't blatantly late like some of the yellow card calls so far. Pope deserved his second Yellow for arguing, but going directly to red was ludicrous. I thought the only player begging for a Yellow was Onyewu. He had his hands on people all the time and consistantly got called for fouls.
Without the Red cards, the Americans would have worn out the Italians who were struggling out there. Even with nine players, the US scored a goal, albeit on an interference.
I'll be interested to see if they finally play Johnson for significant time against Ghana. I was so mad we never used our third substitution saturday. I think Arena is a good, but not great coach who lacks the aggressive game plan we need to be more offensive minded. We did a great job of getting the ball into the Italian box, but shot the ball incredibly poor. We lack a pure striker and need some players that can just tap it in like the Argentines.
Finally, The French were robbed too yesterday. That was easily a goal. They need that microchip in the ball to help out these poor refs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:14 am 
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I'm still annoyed at that fucking game.

Granted I NEVER watch soccer but as an amateur fan it seems to me that the refs have as much influence on the outcome of the game as judges do in Ice Skating.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:36 pm 
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Promethium Wrote:
They had one momentary lapse in the game where they allowed Italy to score, but the rest of the time they dominated the Italians.


:wtf:

Did you watch the same game? Where was ANY offensive threat on USA's part? The only goal scored was a fluke deflection off of one of Italy's players. Keller had a great game in goal but he's the only one who really played well. If he hadn't, they would have lost. USA didn't dominate at all.

They won't advance and they shouldn't. They just aren't very good.

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billinho g Wrote:
Promethium Wrote:
They had one momentary lapse in the game where they allowed Italy to score, but the rest of the time they dominated the Italians.


:wtf:

Did you watch the same game? Where was ANY offensive threat on USA's part? The only goal scored was a fluke deflection off of one of Italy's players. Keller had a great game in goal but he's the only one who really played well. If he hadn't, they would have lost. USA didn't dominate at all.

They won't advance and they shouldn't. They just aren't very good.


I have to agree with Billy. I wasn't too impressed by the US' performance. They were lucky to get a tie.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:43 pm 
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You people are crazy. Our offense blows but everyone played their asses off to tie. It was an incredible effort by all. Just think of all the odds the team was up against, and they competed with one of the top teams in the world. Who knows what would have happened if the Refs didn't over officiate but I was extremely impressed with the effort and guts. Italy did not show they were superior in the match.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:45 pm 
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C Wrote:
billinho g Wrote:
Promethium Wrote:
They had one momentary lapse in the game where they allowed Italy to score, but the rest of the time they dominated the Italians.


:wtf:

Did you watch the same game? Where was ANY offensive threat on USA's part? The only goal scored was a fluke deflection off of one of Italy's players. Keller had a great game in goal but he's the only one who really played well. If he hadn't, they would have lost. USA didn't dominate at all.

They won't advance and they shouldn't. They just aren't very good.


I have to agree with Billy. I wasn't too impressed by the US' performance. They were lucky to get a tie.


Are you guys serious? They played Italy to a draw a man down for an entire half---how is that not impressive. It's tough to mount a lot of offensive threat with 8 players on the field. The tie was great.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:47 pm 
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oldbullee Wrote:
You people are crazy. Our offense blows but everyone played their asses off to tie. It was an incredible effort by all. Just think of all the odds the team was up against, and they competed with one of the top teams in the world. Who knows what would have happened if the Refs didn't over officiate but I was extremely impressed with the effort and guts. Italy did not show they were superior in the match.


I'll give you that. Their effort was there but I didn't see any potential offense that even threatened the Italians. They, at times, perhaps dominated the mid field play but in no way were they dominating the game.

I think people are comparing their perfromance to the one against the Czechs and that's why we're getting these reactions. But take away the Czech game, and this is a poor performance by the US.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:50 pm 
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C Wrote:
oldbullee Wrote:
You people are crazy. Our offense blows but everyone played their asses off to tie. It was an incredible effort by all. Just think of all the odds the team was up against, and they competed with one of the top teams in the world. Who knows what would have happened if the Refs didn't over officiate but I was extremely impressed with the effort and guts. Italy did not show they were superior in the match.


I'll give you that. Their effort was there but I didn't see any potential offense that even threatened the Italians. They, at times, perhaps dominated the mid field play but in no way were they dominating the game.

I think people are comparing their perfromance to the one against the Czechs and that's why we're getting these reactions. But take away the Czech game, and this is a poor performance by the US.


Disagree. I think if you tell anyone before the WC started that the US would play the Italians to a tie down a man, that would impress them. I agree we lack scorers but we were dominating as much as you can down a man. And in the first half we were taking it to them even if we didn't score.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:28 pm 
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We drove the ball downfield consistantly against Italy and got it into the box on multiple occassions. We just don't have the players or player to put it into the goal with ease like the Argentines do. We had several threats after we were down to nine players, and with a player like Johnson in the game we might have pulled it out. You have to give credit to the Americans for putting the ball into the goal with nine guys on the field, even if the goal was disallowed on a clear interference call.
If you told me before hand that Keller would only having to make two key saves in the 2nd half with only nine men on the field, I'd have to say that was unbelievably impressive.
There were people on this board who said we'd probably lose 5-0 after getting beat by the Czechs, now some of those same people are saying we got lucky. That own goal was definitely huge, but wasn't as important to the outcome of the game as the two ridiculous red card calls.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:39 pm 
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Sometimes I question how much Americans really want America to succeed at anything on the world stage, especially "soccer". I'm not pointing fingers at any individual, just a generalization that I sense. Anything resembling patriotism would somehow align one with that villain, Bush, and that is completely unseemly. Sorry to drag politics in, but that's my take.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:42 pm 
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Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Sometimes I question how much Americans really want America to succeed at anything on the world stage, especially "soccer". I'm not pointing fingers at any individual, just a generalization that I sense. Anything resembling patriotism would somehow align one with that villain, Bush, and that is completely unseemly. Sorry to drag politics in, but that's my take.


Funny thing is, Bush doesn't care how the U.S. does at the World Cup. Football/int'l version is a pansifying, socialist pseudosport of which the U.S. needs no part, in the eyes of the Right. So, yeah... Wishing ill on the U.S. Soccer, that really is a thumb in the eye of Bush.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:47 pm 
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Plus, for people like Libertarian/rightist Billy G, it's not an issue of loathing the U.S. hegemony in general, but wanting the U.S. to pay its dues in soccer. We're not an established, consistent programme yet, a la the Brazilians, Germans, Dutch, Argentines, even the South Koreans (to an extent, and to mention a new jack on the int'l football scene that is already arrived), and we need to reach that level before we can expect to get the calls.


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anon Wrote:
Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Sometimes I question how much Americans really want America to succeed at anything on the world stage, especially "soccer". I'm not pointing fingers at any individual, just a generalization that I sense. Anything resembling patriotism would somehow align one with that villain, Bush, and that is completely unseemly. Sorry to drag politics in, but that's my take.


Funny thing is, Bush doesn't care how the U.S. does at the World Cup. Football/int'l version is a pansifying, socialist pseudosport of which the U.S. needs no part, in the eyes of the Right. So, yeah... Wishing ill on the U.S. Soccer, that really is a thumb in the eye of Bush.


My right eye!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:52 pm 
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I'm pretty sure Dubya called Bruce Arena before the Czech game. He nor anyone US politician would say anything major until after we won it or did exceedingly well again, since they don't know anything about the game and don't want to look foolish.
I'm pretty sure that if the US ever wins a World Cup title, they will be flaunting it in everyone's face for years to come. I think the only reason why we tolerate the British arrogance is that we'll be ten times worse if we ever become the top dog.

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I was reacting mainly to Promethium's saying that the US dominated Italy. They didn't dominate anyone. Keller had a good game and they deserve credit for effort. But they got lucky. Italy basically scored their one goal for them. USA has yet to score a goal for themselves in either game. They have zero offense so how could they dominate anyone.
I can't see this team beating Ghana or advancing. They just aren't very good.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:12 pm 
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Trinidad & Tobago hasn't had any offense, yet one could say the dominated their first match and most of their match against England.
France essentially dominated Korea yesterday, yet they tied.
Granted this is a what-if type situation, but if the USA doesn't have to men sent off due to poor Red card calls by the early part of the 2nd half, you would have seen the Americans put at least two shots in the goal.

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Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Sometimes I question how much Americans really want America to succeed at anything on the world stage, especially "soccer". I'm not pointing fingers at any individual, just a generalization that I sense. Anything resembling patriotism would somehow align one with that villain, Bush, and that is completely unseemly. Sorry to drag politics in, but that's my take.


I can't see how watching YOUR underdog team will themselves to a "moral tie" against the Italians doesn't stir at least a little excitement and maybe, nah, just a little patriotism.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:47 pm 
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anon Wrote:
Plus, for people like Libertarian/rightist Billy G, it's not an issue of loathing the U.S. hegemony in general, but wanting the U.S. to pay its dues in soccer. We're not an established, consistent programme yet, a la the Brazilians, Germans, Dutch, Argentines, even the South Koreans (to an extent, and to mention a new jack on the int'l football scene that is already arrived), and we need to reach that level before we can expect to get the calls.


I can't wait for the day when we move from program to programme in the eyes of the football world.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:01 pm 
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billinho g Wrote:
I was reacting mainly to Promethium's saying that the US dominated Italy. They didn't dominate anyone. Keller had a good game and they deserve credit for effort. But they got lucky. Italy basically scored their one goal for them. USA has yet to score a goal for themselves in either game. They have zero offense so how could they dominate anyone.
I can't see this team beating Ghana or advancing. They just aren't very good.


After Czech Republic I was thinking the same thing. Immediately after the Italy game I was a little disgruntled... pissed off that Reyna is too slow and boring, that Donovan couldn't score a goal if his life depended on it, that Johnson wasn't put in...

But in later reflection, to hold one of the world's best teams without a score while playing with 9 men is a great accomplishment. Dempsey was strong. Keller was (finally) world class. Everyone (except Reyna and Beasely) played all out and hard aggresive football... A stupid offsides (while technically a correct call... McBride standing there did nothing to help the goal) prevented the US from actually winning. Luck can go two ways...

That we have a chance to move through to the next level, while playing the third game in group, is an accomplishment. Look a La France.

This team, if they play strongly against Ghana, even if they tie or lose... have nothing to be ashamed of.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:34 pm 
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oldbullee Wrote:
Stop Breathin' Wrote:
Sometimes I question how much Americans really want America to succeed at anything on the world stage, especially "soccer". I'm not pointing fingers at any individual, just a generalization that I sense. Anything resembling patriotism would somehow align one with that villain, Bush, and that is completely unseemly. Sorry to drag politics in, but that's my take.


I can't see how watching YOUR underdog team will themselves to a "moral tie" against the Italians doesn't stir at least a little excitement and maybe, nah, just a little patriotism.


This is the other side of the "OPA! finding teh ghey in everything" coin, huh?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:42 pm 
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Saint Patrick Wrote:
So, Brazil is trying to give this game away. The Aussies shouldnt be within two goals, much less down 1-0 with three (I counted) golden chances to tie in the last ten minutes.


So I've been studying and this is only a quick check in (ie you'll have to wait for a debate on this), but do you really think so?

Watching that game, Brazil we're pretty average and overall it was even. There is no way they deserved that second goal going on each team's performance in the second half. If, IF, bloody Kewell had managed to get that shot in, or if Viduka had that chip on target it could have been a completely different game. The difference was that Brazil put their chances away when we couldn't.

Not sure I agree with Cahill starting then coming off - it reduces the impact he can have running at defenders late in the game

Ronaldinho is no where near his best at the moment, Ronaldo is still useless, though it's typical that one of the two things he does all game leads to a goal (and admittedly that was poor defending on our part - we had four players back to their two).

On the other hand, Neill in particular had a fantastic game - he deserves to move up from Blackburn after this. Emerton was good too.

Seriously, Brazil haven't looked dominant in either of their games. Both us and Croatia have been able to break them down quite a bit and prevent them from playing their flowing game for large parts of each match. If they want to win this thing they're going to have to get a move on, and keep Ronaldo on the bench.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:43 pm 
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The upshot I guess is that us against Croatia should be an awesome game. Riots in SW Sydney/W Melbourne anyone?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:07 pm 
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telescope Wrote:
Seriously, Brazil haven't looked dominant in either of their games. Both us and Croatia have been able to break them down quite a bit and prevent them from playing their flowing game for large parts of each match. If they want to win this thing they're going to have to get a move on, and keep Ronaldo on the bench.


no they haven't...but they didn't have much in the way of warmup games. also, with all the superstars, i think its realistic to think it would take a little longer for everyone to mesh than teams with just one or two go to guys.

I agree that Ronaldinho doesn't look like himself. It almost seems like he's trying really hard to get Ronaldo the ball in a position to get a goal to pass Pele at the expense of his overall game.

I expect that they (including Ronaldo) will play much better as the cup progresses. they're just lucky to have had a pretty easy group to start with.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:22 pm 
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telescope Wrote:
Saint Patrick Wrote:
So, Brazil is trying to give this game away. The Aussies shouldnt be within two goals, much less down 1-0 with three (I counted) golden chances to tie in the last ten minutes.


So I've been studying and this is only a quick check in (ie you'll have to wait for a debate on this), but do you really think so?

Watching that game, Brazil we're pretty average and overall it was even. There is no way they deserved that second goal going on each team's performance in the second half. If, IF, bloody Kewell had managed to get that shot in, or if Viduka had that chip on target it could have been a completely different game. The difference was that Brazil put their chances away when we couldn't.

Not sure I agree with Cahill starting then coming off - it reduces the impact he can have running at defenders late in the game

Ronaldinho is no where near his best at the moment, Ronaldo is still useless, though it's typical that one of the two things he does all game leads to a goal (and admittedly that was poor defending on our part - we had four players back to their two).

On the other hand, Neill in particular had a fantastic game - he deserves to move up from Blackburn after this. Emerton was good too.

Seriously, Brazil haven't looked dominant in either of their games. Both us and Croatia have been able to break them down quite a bit and prevent them from playing their flowing game for large parts of each match. If they want to win this thing they're going to have to get a move on, and keep Ronaldo on the bench.


Australia played decent in the box defense but they had to spend so much time there. At Brazils end there were some spectacular saves on two or three breakaways that I saw in the second half, but rarely were they challenged in their own end. Brazil, however, spent tons of time in the opponents zone, and this was typified by that second goal, which was essentially a 4-on-1, against a set defense. It looked like Brazil was just going through the motions and the Aussies were playing their hearts out and they were keeping it close that way, but very difficult to prevail in that situation.

edit: and my point was that Brazil was playing very poorly and deserved to lose, but should have been up.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:25 pm 
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billinho g Wrote:
I expect that they (including Ronaldo) will play much better as the cup progresses.


Ronaldo should be a sub at this point. Just awful.


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