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 Post subject: Ortiz
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:02 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:40 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:22 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:28 am 
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This makes me happy... :P


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:32 pm 
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Yeah I saw it the 1st time jerk...The dude is a 40year old closer, tell Ortiz to take it easy next time...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:36 pm 
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Yeah, my grandmother could have hit that ball out, and shes dead.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:26 pm 
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Flash had him in the previous 2 pitches though...I wouldn't write it off to his age. He made a bad pitch and Ortiz made him pay. That's what Papi does!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:02 pm 
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The Obgoblin Wrote:
Yeah I saw it the 1st time jerk...The dude is a 40year old closer, tell Ortiz to take it easy next time...



Gordon is still a very good pitcher. Ortiz made him pay because there's a combination of science and grit to clutch hitting that only a few people can tap into. Papi's one of them. He'll never be a .300 career hitter, but he has/will nearly always come through when needed.

Pat Burrell isn't good at this. A-Rod isn't good at this. Papi is.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:00 am 
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frostingspoon Wrote:
Ortiz made him pay because there's a combination of science and grit to clutch hitting that only a few people can tap into. Papi's one of them. He'll never be a .300 career hitter, but he has/will nearly always come through when needed.

Pat Burrell isn't good at this. A-Rod isn't good at this. Papi is.


This sounds nice, but it's all bullshit. First off, there's no good way to measure clutch hitting. It's an emotional attachment made to an ordinary play. No one seems to notice if Ortiz doesn't produce earlier in the game, or when Rodriguez does.
Also, as of June 20, Rodriguez had driven in the go-ahead run in the 7th inning or later four times, behind only two other major leaguers (Justin Morneau & Michael Young had five).

I wouldn't give Ortiz a pitch he could reach with an oar. Walk his ass. He couldn't score from second on a ball hit from Fenway to Albany.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:26 am 
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timmyjoe42 Wrote:
MEGA Wrote:
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:41 am 
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sweet jesus

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:46 am 
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Michael Young had five


That is one bad-ass baseball playin' muhfuh.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:22 am 
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I don't deny that Ortiz strikes out and pops out long quite often earlier in games. That's why he's a .265 hitter and not a .300 one. My point is that when the game is on the line he nearly always comes through. That's not something that can be taught. That's something he just DOES. Whatever science or emotion there is to that kind of ability doesn't seem to transfer to the general populace of power hitters. He's clutch when the team needs to win the game.

There are many other players with higher batting averages who don't win the game late. It'd be nice if Ortiz were a more varied hitter so that his "almost homers" weren't being caught so often in the earlier innings. But that doesn't change the fact that he produces RBI when the game is on the line.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:54 am 
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frostingspoon Wrote:
I don't deny that Ortiz strikes out and pops out long quite often earlier in games. That's why he's a .265 hitter and not a .300 one. My point is that when the game is on the line he nearly always comes through. That's not something that can be taught. That's something he just DOES. Whatever science or emotion there is to that kind of ability doesn't seem to transfer to the general populace of power hitters. He's clutch when the team needs to win the game.

There are many other players with higher batting averages who don't win the game late. It'd be nice if Ortiz were a more varied hitter so that his "almost homers" weren't being caught so often in the earlier innings. But that doesn't change the fact that he produces RBI when the game is on the line.


The point was that this isn't provable nor repeatable. It just seems like it, because the human mind demands explanations. It can't be taught because it doesn't exist. Same goes for Robert Horry.

The Wikipedia entry on Clutch explains it better, though I left in Jeter's dissenting comment:
The Baseball Prospectus team is hardly alone in their skepticism: various baseball analysts, including Bill James, Pete Palmer, and Dick Cramer, have similarly found so-called "clutch hitting" ability to be a myth. This is not to say that clutch hits, like those listed below, do not exist, but rather that any innate ability to perform well in high-pressure situations is an illusion.

In his 1984 Baseball Abstract, James framed the problem with clutch hitting thusly: "How is it that a player who possesses the reflexes and the batting stroke and the knowledge and the experience to be a .260 hitter in other circumstances magically becomes a .300 hitter when the game is on the line? How does that happen? What is the process? What are the effects? Until we can answer those questions, I see little point in talking about clutch ability." Most studies on the matter involved comparing performance in the "clutch" category of statistics (production with runners in scoring position, performance late in close games, etc.) between seasons; if clutch hitting were an actual skill, it would follow that the same players would do well in the clutch statistics year in and year out (the correlation coefficient between players' performances over multiple seasons would be high).

Cramer's study was the first of its kind, and it found that clutch hitting numbers between seasons for the same player varied wildly; in fact, the variance was the kind one would expect if the numbers had been selected randomly. Since Cramer published his results, many others have tried to find some evidence that clutch hitting is a skill, but almost every study has confirmed Cramer's initial findings: that "clutch hitting," in terms of certain players being able to "rise to the occasion" under pressure, is an illusion.

The explanation offered by most skeptics is that players who have several memorable hits in big games, especially early in their careers, acquire the mantle of "clutch hitter," and fans then unconsciously watch for such hits in the future from those players in particular, falsely reinforcing their beliefs over time. Despite the evidence, many people in baseball steadfastly believe in the idea of the clutch hitter. "You can take those stat guys," Derek Jeter once told Sports Illustrated after SI informed the Yankees shortstop that many analysts deny clutch hitting as a skill, "and throw them out the window."

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:18 am 
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There's a trade-off with Papi. He's a slow runner, a very average fielder and not that great at Ichiro-type small ball. Keeps his average low compared to his RBI count. But his personality and dramatic big-moment hits make him a very good thing for the Red Sox.

Again, I wish his overall batting average were closer to .300, but I certainly wouldn't want him traded.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:44 pm 
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frostingspoon Wrote:
There's a trade-off with Papi. He's a slow runner, a very average fielder and not that great at Ichiro-type small ball. Keeps his average low compared to his RBI count. But his personality and dramatic big-moment hits make him a very good thing for the Red Sox.

Again, I wish his overall batting average were closer to .300, but I certainly wouldn't want him traded.


what the fuck are you talking about? his average is slightly down this year. his power numbers are where they should be. there's no trade off at all. he is the baddest motherfucker in baseball period.

and, i made the trip to boston take in the game on saturday. not a bad choice.

oh, and also, the people that are talking about that pitch being easy to handle are grade-a imbiciles. as someone who played ball through college, i assure you that a curveball with about 1.5 feet of sharp break in a 2 strike count is no meatball even if it is left up. if you think it hung then you clearly know nothing about baseball and you should go hang out with tim mccarver in the convalescent home. not every pitch that is hammered is a bad pitch, you boobs.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:27 pm 
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That's the way it is with Papi. In Boston he's God. Outside of New England people look to say he's overrated. I think he's neither. He's my favorite player right now, the most fun to watch and very important for getting runs across the plate and for keeping morale high.

But I stand firm wishing he'd consistently bat above .300. Not because I'd think more highly than I already do, but because it would make the naysayers less quick to pounce.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:22 pm 
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Yeah, he's so not clutch.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:23 pm 
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ortiz, again.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:24 pm 
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and there you have it once more. obey!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:25 pm 
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man, the phillies are stupid.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:25 pm 
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No doubt..Dude is a beast.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:26 pm 
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shiv Wrote:
man, the phillies are stupid.


pick your poison though. manny with the bases loaded is no picnic.


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