...

So you're saying that under normal circumstances, if I killed you and your family, it would be a bad thing. But, if, after offing ya'll, I made a contribution to your favorite charity in your name, that would make it ok?

Those are the ethics of success, right there.

Debug error

Stupid debug error.

And that guy would not have been a US citizen, in all likelihood, he was Dutch.

And while we're on this soapbox, we should sign California back over to Mexico, and give the rest of the southwest back to anyone who can claim to be Anasazi.

England should empty their coffers to apologize for the BEI Co.

etc. etc.

puh-leeze.

I'm not saying we should give reparations, etc, just that we shouldn't sugarcoat reality. The truth is uncomfortable, and that's just the way it is.

We have the best educated and trained citizenry in history.... and our voting percentage continue to fall. We are barraged with products and images that techno-captitalism needs to make us need. The national economy is predicated on consumer "confidence", meaning too often buying unnecessary things on credit.

The public discourse is certainly dumber by most measures... Katie Couric rather than Walter Cronkite is a good metaphor for the argument.

This particularly z-generation sense of entitlement masks a lowering quality of life by almost all measures. I don't want to hear that things are bad... I deserve good things... I want a new car. Soma.

Oh by the way y'all are making more money than ever these days because you are growing older... from what I know about you, you are just beginning to enter your most productive years economically. To judge the "way things are going" by saying you are doing better is akin to saying that smoking doesn't cause cancer because you smoke and you don't have cancer.

Contraries are true: America has drained the third world of resources, brutally building our own wealth from the suffering of countries with corrupt oligarchies. America has a generous and caring heart... we want to help those around the world who are in need... genuine and powerful compassion is core to our cultural norms... especially if we see the unfortunates on our TV screens.

naw man. That's not what I am saying. Let me see if I can explain myself better. After reading the remarks between you and I, I think this is my point:

Me saying that getting something back from the countries our government has helped to reduce our "bankruptcy" would be congruent. However, saying that our government owes the people that individuals and corporations have exploited is as linked and rational as saying that all debts are paid if you kill my family and me but make a donation to our favorite charities. Of course that's ridiculous. But, in many ways, many things in the legal world are not just argued on a "he's guilty of murder, let's fry him" sense, but there are also civil cases wherein money is doled out to the victim and/or the family of the victim. So, in many respects, I think that arguing that the things we have done on a humanitarian and (forgive the following made up word) reconstructionary sense does, in some way, contribute to the retribution necessary in these cases. However, the retribution shouldn't even have to come from the government. It should come from those who are breaking ethics and violating basic rights of those less fortunate. It's a bit more socialist than I am willing to adhere to to say that the government is responsible for the sins of the corporate world. However, if our government had agreed on some level to cover the mistakes of the individual citizens in this way, then maybe we could agree that it is the government's responsibilty. However, free enterprise means you have to obey our laws but ultimately can do anything that is not illegal. Essentially, I think the looking glass that you admittedly look through in this issue is not exactly directly related to our government going bankrupt or my original statement.

Part of the reason we are going bankrupt, if that is true, is because we hand out money that doesn't even exist to almost every single country in the world...including our "enemies". Therefore, in many ways, we are owed some in return, especially when the money was "borrowed" and not just given out of good will. And ultimately, I don't see how this relates to the poor ethics of businessmen.

Don't get me wrong. I do see your point, and I agree on some levels. But we're going bankrupt for many reasons, partly because of the money we hand out, but not because there are shady businessmen that call themselves U.S. citizens.

EDIT: One more thing about the offing my family analogy: I never said that the money we have given in humanitarian aid and spent in rebuilding nations after wars, etc was a justification for the previous acts. However, it is retribution. There is a significant difference between the two terms. As I mentioned about civil cases, it is for retribution, not justification. You pay for someone's car that you slam into on the highway so that you can make retribution and do what you can after the fact, not so that you can get the charges dismissed. It's what retribution is. THe ideal I agree with you on. Making it so that the car accident doesn't happen in the first place. BUt, I feel that a true idealist doesn't expect to see the ideal come to fruition, rather dedicates his/her life to doing their part to make that ideal a reality for a future generation. I don't know what you do, but from your previous post it sounds like you are trying to do that, and that is commendable. Very few people focus on others for their life. They only focus on themselves, as you can see by the interviews of the general public: what's your biggest worry right now? The average american would most likely say gas prices, but seem to miss the fact that the clusterfuck from Egypt to Israel is directly related to that stress.

And, I do think america has a big heart. But, I also agree that we suffer from extreme selfishness. It's a weird mix, but I see significant aspects of both. And I don't think that our selfishness outweighs the big heart. It's just more noticeable because it is severely disturbing.

thanks for the tip genius.

A couple quick points:

The actions of "unethical businessmen" do reflect back on our country as a whole. When there are American corporations running sweatshops and making loads of money by exploiting impoverished people around the world, people generally are going to hold "us" (meaning our country or americans as a whole) accountable. I'm not saying whether it's fair or not, it's just a natural reaction on their part.

Have you ever travelled abroad? Often foreigners are surprised to learn that being an american doesn't necessarily mean you endorse the actions of our gov't. Again, not saying it's fair, but it's a natural reaction on their part, especially in parts of the world where people tend to be more nationalistic.

And I really doubt that if our gov't is going bankrupt it's b/c of all the foreign aid we hand out every year. We give a smaller percentage of our GDP than a lot of European countries. Something tells me a certain war costing hundreds of billions of dollars per month, coupled with rising social security costs and lower taxes has more to do with it.

well, i'm glad to see we got a lot accomplished with this thread.

cant you just print some more money?

its bound to work, right?

lol you guys can get it all back in kyoto credits!!!!!

I understand that the collective we are held responsible in a sense. But our federal government is no more obligated to fix the unethical businessmen than you as an individual in my opinion.

I have been to many countries. I spent 4 months in Ireland. A good chunk of time in Slovakia and some of the surrounding eastern european countries. Costa Rica, Scotland, England, France, Germany and canada. I have found that many people in other countries are often surprised that we are not all american flag weilding republican war-mongers. However, they get over it real fast. They don't care that much. I have found it to be more of an ice-breaker than any real stereotype.

I never said that we're going bankrupt from handouts and rebuilding countries. I said it could be a parto f it at the very least. And, frankly, I don't really know enough to know if we are actually going bankrupt. But, again, I don't really think that the exploitation of third world countries by businessmen and corporations has anything to do with our bankruptcy. At least less than my statement about how much humanitarian aid, etc we have given out.

but who should be responsible to fix this? their consciences? Should I cross my fingers and hope people stop being so greedy?

we do give a lot of money to foreign governments, but more often than not we're at least part of the reason why they're so fucked up. Shit, how many people do you think those tax cuts helped out? and who do you think they helped out? I can assure you they weren't eating maggot-infested bread or living in houses made out of goat shit, I can assure you. If we're gonna be the cavalier superpower of the globe, trotting around and imposing our will everywhere in the world, then we're responsible to provide aid to the countries that need it. Until we've gone back to isolationist policy (i.e. never), we've gotta keep providing said aid.

...that's what I'm talking about...

so ummm. canada? yeah. youre umm. not far behind.

i said "i can assure you" twice. that's EXTRA assured.

cue somone to tell me how trickle-down economics works:

I don't think it has to be the government's job to "fix" unethical humans. And no, don't cross your fingers. You could do something about it. What? I don't know. But even if you feel that the government should go about trying to stop unethical businessmen from exploiting third world countries, it's still not their fault that the businessmen do it which is all I am trying to say. A government has a responsibility over it's people. But, retribution is to be paid for these acts that happen. It's not to be used as blame toward the government itself. Unethical evil big time corporations are the guilty party. Not the Federal government. I am not saying the government has never been behind things like this either, but in terms of the corporations and such, this is how I feel. But, you personally have just as much of a responsibilty to do your part to make sure these men and corporations don't expoit the exploitable, and "your part" is not just whining that the federal government isn't doing enough to stop them.

EDIT: I CAN ASSURE YOU x 3!

exactly. americas financial mismanagement screws us just as much as it does you. which is why i really wish you americans would get your shit together already.

S. Harper is globalist, world market, neo-liberal World Bank addict... you too will soon have a middle and working class slipping into the abyss with tax cuts for the super-rich followed shortly by inreasing deficts owned by the chinese. Enjoy your self-righeousness... it has a shelf-life.

why cant i be? canada had to bust its collective ass to get our finances under control. we're the only g8 country without a deficit. plus, stephen harper was an economist, so i have faith that he knows what hes doing.

ps: im a globalist, world market, neo-liberal too. socially, far left. economically, far right.

And so.... data? Evidence? Surely after the last 10 years you must understand that those two positions, at one time pretty common andproudly held, are contraindicative.