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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Go Platinum

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nacho Wrote:
The actions of "unethical businessmen" do reflect back on our country as a whole. When there are American corporations running sweatshops and making loads of money by exploiting impoverished people around the world, people generally are going to hold "us" (meaning our country or americans as a whole) accountable.


Yup, because it's US corporations that are so ill-behaved. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're dead wrong.

There are very few public companies, which are the vast majority of US firms with sizeable presence overseas, that are "running sweatshops". Usually, when a US corporation opens up an overseas installation, it's one of the best places to work in the locale.

US law governs US corporations' overseas activities, and the free market (i.e. public ownership) serves as an additional check/balance. Sure, our past may be checkered, but our overseas transgressions were no worse than the transgressions being perpetrated at home--and they pale in comparison to what's been done by other former colonial powers.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:08 pm 
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Billzebub Wrote:
nacho Wrote:
The actions of "unethical businessmen" do reflect back on our country as a whole. When there are American corporations running sweatshops and making loads of money by exploiting impoverished people around the world, people generally are going to hold "us" (meaning our country or americans as a whole) accountable.


Yup, because it's US corporations that are so ill-behaved. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're dead wrong.

There are very few public companies, which are the vast majority of US firms with sizeable presence overseas, that are "running sweatshops". Usually, when a US corporation opens up an overseas installation, it's one of the best places to work in the locale.

US law governs US corporations' overseas activities, and the free market (i.e. public ownership) serves as an additional check/balance. Sure, our past may be checkered, but our overseas transgressions were no worse than the transgressions being perpetrated at home--and they pale in comparison to what's been done by other former colonial powers.


http://www.coopamerica.org/programs/sweatshops/
http://www.nlcnet.org/live/
http://www.globalexchange.org/
http://www.heartsandminds.org/articles/sweat.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:44 pm 
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harry Wrote:
Northern Soul Wrote:
socially, far left. economically, far right.


And so.... data? Evidence? Surely after the last 10 years you must understand that those two positions, at one time pretty common andproudly held, are contraindicative.


strongly support gay marriage, socialized heathcare, unions
strongly support free trade, globalization, low taxes, as small as possible government intervention into the economy(this is a conflict by conflict issue, though. i support socialized healthcare because i believe it makes it easier for small business to compete. i dont support government intervention in the telecom industry, for example)

in most ways i would be considered a libertarian socialist.
from the article:
The basic philosophy of libertarian socialism is summed up in the name: management of the common good (socialism) in a manner that attempts to maximize the liberty of individuals and minimizes concentration of power or authority (libertarianism).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:57 pm 
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Acid Grandfather
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Northern Soul Wrote:
harry Wrote:
Northern Soul Wrote:
socially, far left. economically, far right.


And so.... data? Evidence? Surely after the last 10 years you must understand that those two positions, at one time pretty common andproudly held, are contraindicative.


strongly support gay marriage, socialized heathcare, unions
strongly support free trade, globalization, low taxes, as small as possible government intervention into the economy(this is a conflict by conflict issue, though. i support socialized healthcare because i believe it makes it easier for small business to compete. i dont support government intervention in the telecom industry, for example)

in most ways i would be considered a libertarian socialist.
from the article:
The basic philosophy of libertarian socialism is summed up in the name: management of the common good (socialism) in a manner that attempts to maximize the liberty of individuals and minimizes concentration of power or authority (libertarianism).


Yeah, sounds like you are a democratic socialist... socialists are not economic conservatives. How you have socialism and low taxes is a neat trick. And I am sure I could talk you out of this misguided attraction to "free trade and globalization" and show you that it's only free for multi-national corporations... I'd just need a couple bottles of wine (for you) and a PowerPoint or two.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:00 pm 
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I don't know how you can call yourself socially liberal and yet still use powerpoint.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:04 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
I don't know how you can call yourself socially liberal and yet still use powerpoint.


Did I ever claim social liberalism...? I am an anarcho-syndicalist troglodyte with a wicked Stalinist .ppt

Consistency is hobgoblin of trivial something or other....

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:10 pm 
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harry Wrote:
And I am sure I could talk you out of this misguided attraction to "free trade and globalization" and show you that it's only free for multi-national corporations...

well, its not "only" for multi-national corporations, but a large part of it would be. and im fine with that. but it also allows a whole bunch of small business to maximize their market size, which will make entrepreneurship important again, rather than how it is now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:34 pm 
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Northern Soul Wrote:
harry Wrote:
And I am sure I could talk you out of this misguided attraction to "free trade and globalization" and show you that it's only free for multi-national corporations...

well, its not "only" for multi-national corporations, but a large part of it would be. and im fine with that. but it also allows a whole bunch of small business to maximize their market size, which will make entrepreneurship important again, rather than how it is now.



Aaaarrgghh. this is the common argument... the sanctity of how "the market" honors individualism and this sentimental idea of the entrepreneur. Take corn in Mexico... NAFTA, free trade, in two years is going to allow the agri-business producers of corn in the US to totally undersell the small farmer in Mexico (this has already happened to tomatoes). If you do not have the capital to run large ag., then you can't compete. International free trade favors those institution who are able to accumulate capital, and as a result, by definition, prevent the individual entrepreneur from having any marketspace.

In the name of free trade, we eliminate freedom. Capital runs to capital.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:42 pm 
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Go Platinum

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I havent understood a word that either of you have said in like 5 posts. When did you all learn Chinese? Well, I haven't understood anything but .ppt. That's my language, bitches.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:16 am 
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British Press Hype
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Billzebub Wrote:
nacho Wrote:
The actions of "unethical businessmen" do reflect back on our country as a whole. When there are American corporations running sweatshops and making loads of money by exploiting impoverished people around the world, people generally are going to hold "us" (meaning our country or americans as a whole) accountable.


Yup, because it's US corporations that are so ill-behaved. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're dead wrong.

There are very few public companies, which are the vast majority of US firms with sizeable presence overseas, that are "running sweatshops". Usually, when a US corporation opens up an overseas installation, it's one of the best places to work in the locale.


Yay America!!

Look, I'd like to think that most American-owned corporations (public or private- it really doesn't matter) operating in foreign countries are doing the right thing. What is clear is that at least some of them aren't. That pisses me off. I guess you're ok with it, and that's your perogative.

Quote:
US law governs US corporations' overseas activities, and the free market (i.e. public ownership) serves as an additional check/balance.


US law (Federal? State?) does not govern the activities of American-owned corporations operating in other countries. Any corporation that is going to move operations abroad is going to set up a sister corp or subsidiary and incorporate in whatever country they chose, and thereby be subject to the laws of that country and not ours. Taking advantage of weaker legal systems and little or no regulation is half the fun of operating abroad.

And how does public ownership serve as a check/balance?? All any shareholder cares about is a return on his investment. If the company he owns stock in is maximizing his return by running a sweatshop in SE Asia, is he really gonna care?? Doubtful...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:21 am 
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frostingspoon
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nacho Wrote:
US law (Federal? State?) does not govern the activities of American-owned corporations operating in other countries. Any corporation that is going to move operations abroad is going to set up a sister corp or subsidiary and incorporate in whatever country they chose, and thereby be subject to the laws of that country and not ours. Taking advantage of weaker legal systems and little or no regulation is half the fun of operating abroad.

And how does public ownership serve as a check/balance?? All any shareholder cares about is a return on his investment. If the company he owns stock in is maximizing his return by running a sweatshop in SE Asia, is he really gonna care?? Doubtful...


Truf. Although there is legislation in the pipeline that would ostensibly ban the import of sweatshop-produced goods, it's not in place yet, so there's no law to prevent US corps from incorporating elsewhere and escaping the rule of US law.

And yeah, apart from Nike, I can't think of any company that's actually been compelled to change their practices as a result of shareholder outrage. And even if shareholders do make a stink, who can actually check up on the companies' activities? In many countries, sweatshops have the blessing and protection of the government, and can keep watchdogs out and workers quiet.


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