Oh, you mean like Plan B?

i just find it a bummer that if i do become an alcaholic the one solution of group support i can count on being in my neighborhood (due to massive government funding) is based on a style of spirituality i could never really buy into.

Fu. I agree that it's sketchy. I am going off, not so much what the steps say, but more what the people in AA said and did. I think the key phrase in all of those is in step 3. "...over to the care of God, as we understood him

That's where I believe that the people I spoke with got the idea that it can be anything. ALso, I agree that things like a beanie baby will not work. I think the people that say, "my mom is my higher power" or "this blade of grass is my higher power" are the people you are going to see relapse over and over again. This doesn't mean that someone succeeds when they find God. But, it does mean that until they find something substantial, and I believe something spiritual no matter what you call it, they will contine to relapse. Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but I am not quite sure what else to use.

I am just saying your kids will be glad, no matter who your god is, when you stop beating them while drunk.

put that in your quote.



(note: this is not necessarily my personal situation)

For school I had to go to a Sex Addict Support Group meeting but I couldn't identify myself as a student. I had to go and pretend I was a recovering sexoholic. It was kind of like a Seinfeld episode but verrrry shady. Lots of depressed, oversexed men and ugly, needy, touchy-feely women. The stories I heard kept me smiling for weeks afterwards though.

Well, some of the 12 traditions which guide the AA include things like "AA ought never be organized"... and "anonymity is spiritual foundation of all our traditions..."

So, folks, it would be wrong for anyone here publicly to admit to being an AA member.

So let's just say there is an old beatnik hippie who was out of control on drugs for many years. Let's just say that he perhaps was in drug rehabs 8-10 times. Let's say that the imperfect world of the 12 steps saved his life and continues to help him seek some spititual (not religious) relief, for many years now.

Let's just say that he might have gone for years to a meeting in Hollywood full of old leftist jewish atheists... for whom the "higher power" was humans together in mutual aid. And in that room of atheists there was more spiritual truth than most churches.

Just tell your friend to be fearless and thorough from the very start... and then stay the fuck out of her way.

They used to say... take what you need, and leave the rest.

Me and my friends at a teen detention program were forced to go to NA as part of our treatment (or they revoke our freedom).

the old depressed guys (99% of AA/NAers are guys, i think my girlfriend and her pal were the only ones that were female) were really funny in a "i'm laughing at your old misery way".

They held it at a church after hours and one time we skipped out and went skinny dipping in the baptismal pool.

another time me and my girl showed up only to be locked out in the cold for four hours. fuckers.

the religion aspect was hard to take and focused more on spare passages than true stories of redemption... that pissed me off.

group therapy can be awesome... when dealing with a diverse group who have interesting things to say... otherwise AA is just a bunch of old miserable people who really want a drink

The feedback I have received from people in the program is that AA works if/when you follow it. At a core level, I don't see how this makes it different from any conventional spiritual practice, exercise regime, diet, or other self-help system. If you don't like the driving concepts, fine. Find something else that works for you if you seek to improve your self or your life.

Your teacher told you to do this? This is highly unethical, imo.

I disagree- it would be wrong if someone outed someone else as being an AA member but I see nothing wrong with saying you are a friend of Bill- especially if it helps someone with a problem get help.


And I am surprised that most people say that they have a problem with the 'God' talk. Ive been to meetings, and quite frankly, the in and outs of a meeting revolve little around 'god'. The point is not so much one of conformity or needing to share this belief with the group but instead the humility and meekness of admitting that alcohol is stronger than you.

Personally I feel however, that when you have hit your low - low enough to admit that you need help - and you cant do it yourself- the last thing you sit there struggling with is whether God exists or not -- nor whether you would feel comfortable espousing the tenets of AA if you do not completely agree with them. Ive known people in AA who had problems with the whole higher power aspect- and their sponsors and friends would simply say "work on it" - that is, the belief is not a prerequisite.

Anyhow as already mentioned, you take what works for you and you leave the rest.

I completely agree with Harry's "take what you need and leave the rest" philosophy. It's gotten me through a lot of things in life. Some people can't leave the rest, though, so it's probably good that AA is NOT Scientology.

It saved my family too. My dad has been sober for 27 years and it has saved his life (he was so addicted, he swallowed his tongue going through detox). What can an hour of her time hurt? I'd say try it and see what it's about.

Not to disparage any one personal experience, but aside from anecdotes presumed to be in the minority, don't you think a cafeteria-style recovery plan would lessen the effectiveness of the overall program and be detrimental to relapse rates? Why not make it the 8/12 Steps,or some individually acceptable "Choose Your Own Adventure"-styled fraction thereof? I know in practice this is possible, but it does go against the grain of the program, at least how it appears to be stated.

On another note, I find it silly—though not at all surprising—that it's all dandy when god throws his weight behind some boarder's personal problems, yet when god or Christian beliefs are invoked by someone of another political party affiliation, it's only serves to run this country into the ditch.

I have a relative who's been sober forty years. Has to be one of AA's greatest successes.

Like all great truths, there is a yin/yang... and seeming contradiction. Simultaneously truth are these contradictions: "do what is suggested and follow this path... your own thinking is the problem." And "we know only a little... these words are meant to be suggestive only."

But a reason why AA has flourished internationally is 1) it is not organized, there is no credo or requirements for "membership" 2) the words are meant to be suggestive only... the rationalizing "yeah but..." addict need only listen. Recovery that is not authentically and individually personal, is something that will not last.

Anonymity: this is the great secret of spiritual solutions. Sure personal testimonio is fine, indeed the single pratice of meetings... an individual sharing his or her specific experience, strength and hope with others. In in general, addiction and alcoholism is in part a disease of the ego; both too big and too small at the same time (c.f. contradiction above). I am a total piece of shit and the whole world revolves around me.

We must maintian anonymity at the level of press, radio, film and digital bulletin boards. But I am old school...

"a bunch of old guys wanting a drink..." Well, no, that's what one wants to get away from. There was this bar in Venice... a bunch of old guys wanting a drink...

great post- and yes 'anonymity of the ego' I agree

I don't find this unusual at all. Religion is a personal matter, so personal topics are a natural arena for its discussion and as individuals we decide how large or small a role it should play in our lives. Public politics and broader policies that affect a wide range of people with wide ranging beliefs are another story entirely when it comes to interjecting personal religious beliefs into national policy decisions.

Egomaniac with low self-esteem is one of my favorite descriptions, but I like this too.

Public policy is one thing. Dismissing people you disagree with based on religious beliefs is suspect, and common around here.