Fucking Dean on "Hardball" right now.

Paraphrased, of course:
Dean: We need to get out of Iraq.

Matthews: How soon should we get out?

Dean: Oh well I don't know, I'm not going to set a time schedule.

Matthews: What? You can't say anything? How about in a year?

Dean: Obviously we can't leave right now, but I can't say when we can.

…

Get the fuck out. Get the fuck out, period.

I really wish the "Democratic leadership" would shut the fuck up until the election is over. These douchebags will find some way of making some heavily favored Democratic races close and cost some Democrat a seat in the highly competitive races.
Here in Nebraska, Ben Nelson is up by more than 20pts and the GOP candidate keeps bringing all the Republican big guns to campaign for him and tell everyone that this race could determine which party controls the Senate. So far it has had little impact on the race, but I can see some Democratic jackass saying something that turns off alot of independent voters who are mad at the GOP and were going to vote Democratic.

You seem pretty angry

Trouble is, what needs to be said is something no one wants to hear; the situation in Iraq is so fucked that we're not getting out of there anytime soon if we plan on leaving anything resembling a civilized, working country that won't immediately spawn generations of angry, disenfranchised young men eager to leap into the ranks of religious zealot movements. That's a decade-long commitment, but say so publicly and you'll get your throat cut by your own party leaders.

The Dems are well-meaning but uncoordinated and gutless douchebags. Unfortunately, they're the only alternative to the mercenary, don't-worry-about-tomorrow assholes on the other side.

And yeah, Dean blows.

The thing is, they aren't alternatives. The difference is they don't wear those red ties.

It's all Bloor's fault. He's got me locked into cable news now.

I'll be honest, I'd be less angry if I was making more money. The GOP is currently spending our country into oblivion, which means I won't have the same safety net that alot of old conservative windbags have now.
It is also incredibly frustrating to live in an unbelievably partisan Republican state where the editorial section of the local newspaper infuriates me everyday. Everyone who writes with a rational and moderate viewpoint is attacked by the same old conservative talking points. Hagel is attacked here regularly for not being loyal and critical of the Iraqi war, even though he served in the Military and Dubya did not.

what happens if we pull out?

Iraq will descend into a civil war, Kurdistan will declare itself to be a Republic and Iran will assist the Shia in the eventual slaughter of the Sunni. I wouldn't be surprised if you did not see a Rwandan style genocide.
The only thing positive from our vantage point would be that it might create a massive factional Muslim war in the Middle East where the Sunni heavy countries fight the Shia heavy countries. I'm not saying that would be a good thing for us, just that some people in america wouldn't mind seeing it happen.

I missed Dean tonight, but did you see the guy running for Congress from Texas and the chick who's running against Murtha in Penn. just get molested by Mathews in the last few days? Honestly, it was some good fucking TV.

Dean was fine until the people who run the Democratic Party actually started taking him seriously. The rest of America (including thousands of potential Democratic voters) havent taken this guy seriously since this shit went down.

Not surprising though from the same party leadership who brought us Nancy Pelosi.

At least things are looking optimistic here in Ohio.

Mike DeWine is trying the best he can to nuke Sherrod Brown's Senate campaign, but it's not working very well. He even dragged John McCain all the way over here to help him out because he can't use Bush anymore to repeat standard White House talking points.

And Ted Strickland is for all intents and purposes Ohio's next governor.

Van Taylor? That dipshit should be tarred with 7-11 chili and covered in pubes.

Another good one was when he showed Bush's press conference from earlier in the week, then showed Cheney from years before saying the opposite, and Rick "Bestiality WHUT" Santorum said that's not what happened. So Matthews stopped him, and played the clips again.

sounds about right.
what happens if we stay?

Pregnancy averted.

You all know that it would be disasterous if we pulled out now. W himself said so.

Democrats pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory since 97.'

Every incumbent—elected and non-elected—is happy.

With our current policy, 20-150 Iraqis will die everyday due to "insurgent" violence. By the end of the year, something like 3,000 american soldiers will have been killed to date. The Iraqi military will be slightly more capable of maintaining national security, but the government will move closer and closer to being a Shia military state.
I personally think you will see a reduction in troop numbers announced shortly after the election, no matter who controls Congress here in the USA. With plans in place to only have a token number of forces still in Iraq by 2008.
Nothing major will change in Iraq barring a massive insurgent strike, but most people in the USA will be happy after nominal changes are announced and a decent number of troops come back.

Fuck everything, just hand Iraq over to Iran. They need a crazy leader with a beard now more than ever.

All I know is, I'm voting Libertarian again. Wasted vote or not, at least I'll be able to stand myself.

I don't think I REALLY need to tell you that the Minority Leader in the House is elected by their caucus, while The Chairman of The Party is elected by The Democratic National Committee Delegates, and in some ways the two are diametrically opposed. (i.e. the Committee that elected Dean was re-acting to the same bs, pushover tactics employed by the mealy-mouthed Repub-lite leadership in Washington.)

Also, whoever the hell Montana Leblanc is , its really on been since 2000 that Dems have been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on the Presidential level, and really 2002 on a more widespread congressional/senatorial level.

Also, Promethium, by "get out of the way" what would you suggest? Because if Dean calls for an all out pull out, your boy Ben Nelson is toast. If they 'nationalize' the election, and send direct mail pieces and run TV ads for Nelson about how much better the world would be with Democrats controlling the future of Social Security and Education, well he's toast.

Look for both things to happen.

Honsestly, I don't know what I would do in a position of leadership right now, especially if I were a congressman or Senator, other than trying to figure out SOLUTIONS, rather than who to point the finger at (which is why the Dems are really gonna fuck this up)

Nice job giving away the seat in Connecticut.

check out the whole clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIlZhlUqKfA

i personally agree that we have nothing to gain by staying in iraq another day, but it's going to be hard to stomach what happens to that country after we leave. honestly, it's going to happen regardless, it's a question of how many more american lives and american dollars that we feel like spending for a cause that's only killing thousands of iraqis, making the world hate us and making us less safe.

so anyway, i'd love it if dean would have taken a clearer stand, but i think he did fine in other parts of the interview. he had good clear things to say about ned lamont, jim webb, and he trashed allen.

i've not yet heard loog way in on lamont; surely you have an opinion, do share it.

"hahahaha, oh those Dems are heeeeelarious"!

The country will be on a sure slide to broad civil war with sectarian violence increasing monthly.... i.e. status quo.

Oh, I take that back, the Al Qaeda/Wahabiist terrorists will leave because there will be no reason to be there. There would be a change.