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Beatles or Beach Boys?
Beatles 85%  85%  [ 45 ]
Beach Boys 15%  15%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 53
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:29 pm 
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This is a good discussion... what I used to like about CMJ and is less common in Obner. Passionate disagreements about matters of substance.

I think digging a little deeper into why the Beatles are great is the tension between the gritty hunger of Lennon and the fluffy confection that was Macca (with a gentle sprinkling of tasty George). Lennon's voice, it's substance, timbre, phrasing, imperfections... was as much the perfect instrument for his times as was Elvis for his decade, Cobain for his, Thom Yorke's for his... so the "reason" for the Beatles' greatness, for me, starts in the heart of John singing. If anyone doesn't get this, I don't know what can be done. I don't like Elvis, would never ever choose to listen to him... but I hear it. I get it... since my baby left me.

Speaking of which... what the fuck is up with the Senator's tag line. Harry doesn't cotton to the Reina thing at all...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:29 pm 
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Dave, explain to me what you mean by the Mitchell-Young comment.

I don't hear The Beatles influence in Neil Young myself.

And I think there are hundreds of female folkie-hippie-feminist-singer-songwriters who have little use for The Beatles but worship Joni. Joni seems to have sprung from her own psyche, with maybe nods to older protest singers of the mid 40's to early 60's.

And I don't hear much Beatles in Marianne Faithfull or The Velvet Underground, either. Bowie was himself Beatles-influenced as a teenager, so I guess that connection is there.

But I certainly don't hear the Beatles in Stevie Wonder, The Temptations, Sly Stone, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:32 pm 
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How many people remember watching the Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan? It's one of those singular events/bands that define an era. Whether you liked Nirvana or not, Kurt swallowing a shot gun is one event that all the members of your high school can discuss the impact of and I think that's probably the closest thing we can relate to.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:36 pm 
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I'm also curious to see how (ultimately) influential acts like Wire, The Fall, Leonard Cohen, Dead Kennedys, and Frank Zappa have any musical debt owed to the Beatles. I don't hear it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:39 pm 
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I see tons of influence of the Beatles (at least reactionary) in Zappa. And I can also see the Beatles experimental side in bands like Wire. And I can easily see the The Fall as beatles fans.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:44 pm 
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frosted Wrote:
I don't hear The Beatles influence in Neil Young myself.


Nowhere in Buffalo Springfield do you hear Beatles? "Nowadays Clancy..." or "Do I have to come right out and say it..." Or even "flying mother nature's silver seed to a new home in the sun..." in 1970 was "across the universe-ish". The "folk-rock" school itself was the product of Dylan's two-way illicit coupling with Brit Pop. Maybe.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:44 pm 
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Yeah, but there were other experimental bands in the 60's.They just got left by the wayside of memory. I think assuming Zappa is Beatles-influenced just because they both got goofy and both tried new sounds is a bit of a stretch.

Mark E. Smith is just as likely to be a fan of thirty or forty other oddball sixties acts as he is The Beatles. But again, we make The Beatles = The 60's, so they are always fully credited when the truth is probably much more an amalgam.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:49 pm 
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harry Wrote:
frosted Wrote:
I don't hear The Beatles influence in Neil Young myself.


Nowhere in Buffalo Springfield do you hear Beatles? "Nowadays Clancy..." or "Do I have to come right out and say it..." Or even "flying mother nature's silver seed to a new home in the sun..." in 1970 was "across the universe-ish". The "folk-rock" school itself was the product of Dylan's two-way illicit coupling with Brit Pop. Maybe.


Again, this is giving credit specifically to the Beatles for something that was a worldwide quest for "better" and "new." Lennon-McCartney didn't come up with these sounds completely out of thin air. They didn't invent taking drugs and making weird noises by their lonesomes. And Young was a freaky dude with plenty of his own freaky imagery. Just because one act's lyrics are trippy-dip, doesn't necessarily follow they sprung from another act.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:50 pm 
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frosted Wrote:
I'm also curious to see how (ultimately) influential acts like Wire, The Fall, Leonard Cohen, Dead Kennedys, and Frank Zappa have any musical debt owed to the Beatles. I don't hear it.


Again, there are two discussions... a musical influence, and a cultural influence. The Beatles radically altered the musical landscape culturally, something little understood today. Watch Lookback in Anger... then look at Darling.... the sense of the Insider... the secret brotherhood of dope... style as an artifact of revolution... a rough beast was slouching toward Liverpool

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:55 pm 
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harry Wrote:
frosted Wrote:
I'm also curious to see how (ultimately) influential acts like Wire, The Fall, Leonard Cohen, Dead Kennedys, and Frank Zappa have any musical debt owed to the Beatles. I don't hear it.


Again, there are two discussions... a musical influence, and a cultural influence. The Beatles radically altered the musical landscape culturally, something little understood today. Watch Lookback in Anger... then look at Darling.... the sense of the Insider... the secret brotherhood of dope... style as an artifact of revolution... a rough beast was slouching toward Liverpool


Yeah, I made a similar argument years back on CMJ or Q or some such board and was promptly bombarded with a slew of "there were other rough beasts slouching and altering, too" comments.

When this argument comes up, sometimes I babble on one side of the equation, sometimes on the other. Because it can be done thus.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:00 am 
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I went through a spell at about 4th grade where I went a year listening to only radio and the Beatles. Mostly Beatles.

I'm not goin' anywhere with that, just thought I'd throw it in before I hit the sack.

g'night.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:01 am 
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alongwaltz Wrote:
Phil = best, seemingly most intelligent/informed, least snarky poster on the board.


I wouldn't say that exactly. I can however type an astonishing amount of unfiltered yammering in a very short time.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:02 am 
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Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
How many people remember watching the Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan?


Just like seeing Tiffany play the mall. I guess because Kate Bush never played the mall, Tiffany is the greater artist of that decade.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:04 am 
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A Tiffany-Dax duet might be hott. Danielle could electrocute her at the end of the set or something. Or release bats into her face.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:05 am 
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frosted Wrote:
A Tiffany-Dax duet might be hott. Danielle could electrocute her at the end of the set or something. Or release bats into her face.


Ha! You got me pre-edit, since most 'round these parts ain't got the slightest clue on the ever-lovely Ms. Dax.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:06 am 
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Billzebub Wrote:
Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
How many people remember watching the Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan?


Just like seeing Tiffany play the mall. I guess because Danielle Dax never played the mall, Tiffany is the greater artist of that decade.


Well precisely, only this measures a difference you didn't intend to limn.

Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan in the mid 60's meant there were barricades on the streets of Paris in 1968. Tiffany playing the mall means kids in suburban Dallas 1996 smoke chiva and die.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:10 am 
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harry Wrote:
Billzebub Wrote:
Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
How many people remember watching the Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan?


Just like seeing Tiffany play the mall. I guess because Danielle Dax never played the mall, Tiffany is the greater artist of that decade.


Well precisely, only this measures a difference you didn't intend to limn.

Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan in the mid 60's meant there were barricades on the streets of Paris in 1980. Tiffany playing the mall means kids in suburban Dallas smoke chiva and die.


Precisely why I prefer The Pretty Things. To take the Ed Sullivan theme one step further, one would ultimately have to lay the cultural mantle at the foot of Jim Morrison for giving the man the finger and not changing the lyrics to "Light My Fire".


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:17 am 
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Billzebub Wrote:

Precisely why I prefer The Pretty Things. To take the Ed Sullivan theme one step further, one would ultimately have to lay the cultural mantle at the foot of Jim Morrison for giving the man the finger and not changing the lyrics to "Light My Fire".


Of course you are right. But any inclusion of Morrison here will permanently lose all the kids.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:32 am 
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Billzebub Wrote:
Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
How many people remember watching the Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan?


Just like seeing Tiffany play the mall. I guess because Kate Bush never played the mall, Tiffany is the greater artist of that decade.


Not really the same thing at all. Like comparing the Kennedy Assaination with the Reagan assaination attempt. The same and yet completely different.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:46 am 
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Damn it, when is Glen Campbell's influence on modern culture gone to be recognized? Hell of a pluckbox that man swings.

Also, The Coasters, dammit.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:00 am 
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Sen. LooGAR (D - MEH) Wrote:
I have said it before, and no one quite gets it, but every note played since 1964 was influenced by The Beatles. All the music you claim to like is in existence because of The Beatles.


sweeping statements like this are probably why some people are turned away from the Beatles. I mean, sure, they were probably the most influential band of all time, but they are not the be all and end all. Bands like the velvet underground should be credited with at least some of the influence (yeah yeah they formed much later but i think they got to the point a whole lot quicker). If i had to pick two things from the 60s that changed music forever, it would be the Beatles and the Velvet Underground.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:11 am 
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Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
How many people remember watching the Pretty Things on Ed Sullivan?


gladly, me.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:11 am 
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The Fugs, man, that's where she's at, daddy-o.

Also, Barry McGuire's "Eve Of Destruction" had as much cultural impact as any Beatles song. Not that anyone except for a few 55-year old Jesus People rockers give a shit about Barry now.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:16 am 
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Beatles = Really good at a lot of styles
Beach Boys = Really good at one style

Winner: Beatles


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:22 am 
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frosted Wrote:
Also, Barry McGuire's "Eve Of Destruction" had as much cultural impact as any Beatles song. Not that anyone except for a few 55-year old Jesus People rockers give a shit about Barry now.


Career tip #136: Don't bank all of your commercial success on the imminent end the world.


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