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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:05 pm 
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frostingspoon
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comatoze Wrote:
My question is if there's so damn many of them, why can't I find a young, hot one to be my housekeeper/sex slave?


Oh you just aren't trying.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:19 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Hey gang, they aren't all Mexicans. There are plenty of Salvadorans, Guatemalans, Hondurans and other Central American immigrants.


And Australians, and Chinese, and plenty of Canadians.

Terrorism: Almost all real and reported threats since 2000 have come across the Canadian border.

There is an historic relationship between our Southwest and Mexico. Changing that relationship is like trying to change the tide. I know families that have "seasonally" come and gone, to and from, Mexico and California for generations... without papers.

Undocumented: is the accurate description.

There is an issue with waves of immigrants driving down wages, and creating more unemployment for Americans without high school diplomas... this is statistically supported. A guest worker program, which could address those impacts, makes the most sense.

The Wall?

"Mr. Gorbachev, er, Mr. Bush... tear down that wall!!"

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:27 pm 
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harry Wrote:
And Australians, and Chinese, and plenty of Canadians.

Terrorism: Almost all real and reported threats since 2000 have come across the Canadian border.


I dont have the source (yet) but I did hear mention of Middle Easterners using forged documents from Mexico (or some other Latin American country) in this country which I guess is troublesome on some level.

Not that I'm one to harp on scare tactics (i leave that to the same geniuses who brought us The Iraq War), but I guess national defense is a plausible reason to construct if not a physical wall, then at least something to let us get a look at everyone who wants to come in our country.

It is still our country, right?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:58 pm 
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frostingspoon
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It is still ours, and we are still the coolest country ever.
Too bad we are almost as egotistical as the Swedes, who also have an immigration problem of middle easterners, except they are apparently legal.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:20 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
harry Wrote:
And Australians, and Chinese, and plenty of Canadians.

Terrorism: Almost all real and reported threats since 2000 have come across the Canadian border.


I dont have the source (yet) but I did hear mention of Middle Easterners using forged documents from Mexico (or some other Latin American country) in this country which I guess is troublesome on some level.


I don't know if that's true or not. However, I think a greater concern comes when some of our "neighbors" south of the border are outspoken about having the U.S. cease to exist that can bring reality to the troublesome-ness that you mentioned. Instead of it just being easy to forge documents from other countries, it may be possible that some of the countries help provide those documents. That's simply conjecture, but not outside the realm of possiblities I suppose.

Whereas I don't see the Canadian government possibly working with terrorists as readily as some south american/central american countries.

Maybe just Radcliffe.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:29 pm 
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frostingspoon
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I Used to Be Hegel-Oh's Wrote:
But it makes no sense for us to pay for the education of people who are not citizens. That is simply ridiculous. If they are not a citizen they should not get health care benefits, public education, or any other privelege offered to citizens of this country. It seems pretty logical.


I don't think it's pretty logical at all.

I understand there are drawbacks, but to slam a door shut to cut people, i.e human beings from health care & education isn't exactly a smart idea.

"But they don't pay taxes," you say. "They aren't legal citizens!". Cutting them off isn't going to encourage them to either go back home nor pony up for legal citizenship. Also, this is teetering close to the "I don't have kids so I shouldn't have to cough up cash for public education" argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:37 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
I Used to Be Hegel-Oh's Wrote:
But it makes no sense for us to pay for the education of people who are not citizens. That is simply ridiculous. If they are not a citizen they should not get health care benefits, public education, or any other privelege offered to citizens of this country. It seems pretty logical.


I don't think it's pretty logical at all.

I understand there are drawbacks, but to slam a door shut to cut people, i.e human beings from health care & education isn't exactly a smart idea.

"But they don't pay taxes," you say. "They aren't legal citizens!". Cutting them off isn't going to encourage them to either go back home nor pony up for legal citizenship. Also, this is teetering close to the "I don't have kids so I shouldn't have to cough up cash for public education" argument.


Ok. I understand what you are saying. I was not actually saying that the logic is: they're not citizens so don't give them stuff to get them to go back to where they may have come from. The logic of it is that if you are not a citizen of a place then citizens' benefits do not apply to you, i.e. health care, public education, etc.

I think you would find this type of situation in any other country as well. We may as well let illegal undocumented alien migrants vote too. Isn't that the same reasoning? I suppose not in some ways because it sounds as though you may be saying that education and health care are human rights and not just priveleges of whatever country you're in?

If I accept that premise then I agree with you, but I don't know that I do. Health care and general well-being may be a right of a human to have. But because they are in the United States illegally doesn't mean it is OUR responsibility to provide it. IMO, the responsibility should be on their country of origin. Again, I am not saying we should deny them things to get them to leave. I am saying that United States health care specifically is a privelege offered to satisfy the human rights of its citizens black, brown, white, whatever. But I would not expect that if I dodged the draft and hid out in Canada that I then "deserved" or should be provided with health care just because I am there. Does this make any sense?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:40 pm 
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frostingspoon
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I Used to Be Hegel-Oh's Wrote:
However, I think a greater concern comes when some of our "neighbors" south of the border are outspoken about having the U.S. cease to exist that can bring reality to the troublesome-ness that you mentioned. Instead of it just being easy to forge documents from other countries, it may be possible that some of the countries help provide those documents. That's simply conjecture, but not outside the realm of possiblities I suppose.

Whereas I don't see the Canadian government possibly working with terrorists as readily as some south american/central american countries.


So in other words, it's bad if someone does to us what we did to Mexico about 160 years ago. Here's the board's brief history lesson for today, taken from U.S. Grant's memoirs, a longer excerpt of which can be read here:

+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+

Generally the officers of the army were indifferent whether the annexation [of Texas] was consummated or not; but not so all of them. For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war [with Mexico] which resulted as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory.

Texas was originally a state belonging to the republic of Mexico. It extended from the Sabine River on the east to the Rio Grande on the west, and from the Gulf of Mexico on the south and east to the territory of the United States and New Mexico -- another Mexican state at that time -- on the north and west. An empire in territory, it had but a very sparse population, until settled by Americans who had received authority from Mexico to colonize. These colonists paid very little attention to the supreme government, and introduced slavery into the state almost from the start, though the constitution of Mexico did not, nor does it now, sanction that institution. Soon they set up an independent government of their own, and war existed, between Texas and Mexico, in name from that time until 1836, when active hostilities very nearly ceased upon the capture of Santa Anna, the Mexican President. Before long, however, the same people -- who with permission of Mexico had colonized Texas, and afterwards set up slavery there, and then seceded as soon as they felt strong enough to do so -- offered themselves and the State to the United States, and in 1845 their offer was accepted. The occupation, separation and annexation were, from the inception of the movement to its final consummation, a conspiracy to acquire territory out of which slave states might be formed for the American Union.

Even if the annexation itself could be justified, the manner in which the subsequent war was forced upon Mexico cannot. The fact is, annexationists wanted more territory than they could possibly lay any claim to, as part of the new acquisition.

+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+

I love this country, even with its faults and its stupidity. I don't necessarily see it in my lifetime, but every great nation-state has gotten tripped up somewhere down the line. Personally, I'd rather not have our new overlords salivating blood when they waltz into DC.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:40 pm 
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1. Mexes
2. I think it would be cheaper and more effective to do a daily fucking napalm swoop than build this wall.

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:47 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
So in other words, it's bad if someone does to us what we did to Mexico about 160 years ago.


I deleted my original quote and the big quote from Grant just for space reasons.

I am not sure how your response to my statement relates. I was simply talking about other countries providing falsified documents of citizenship (to their country) in order to "sneak" them into ours for "terrorist" reasons.

Can you clarify what you mean with your quote above?

I may have missed it in my comprehension of the Grant quote, but did it say that the republic gave people from other countries "papers" for the U.S. in order for them to go and instigate an unjust war? I am just not following. sorry.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:34 pm 
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Bram Stroker's LooGAR Wrote:
1. Mexes
2. I think it would be cheaper and more effective to do a daily fucking napalm swoop than build this wall.


Now let's assume you were talking about African Americans... and you sorta pulled the ha-ha chain in the same way... no one would think it's funny but a few crabby and smelly racists in .... oh, right, nevemind.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:25 am 
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I'm curious...does anyone one know what percent of undocumented or "illegal" immigrants entered the country legally?

For example...extended family...father and mother live here, work here legally with a green card. They enter the country legally with their minor children who enter legally under their parents' green cards.

Kids reach majority, some may have had children here, thus parents are here legally, their kids are citizens, but the middle generation is "illegal" because the lottery system is so damned slow.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:29 am 
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i dont support this wall, and its only because of one thing. it is a waste of money. it simply will not work.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:46 am 
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Garage Band
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harry Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
Hey gang, they aren't all Mexicans. There are plenty of Salvadorans, Guatemalans, Hondurans and other Central American immigrants.


And Australians, and Chinese, and plenty of Canadians.



That's cos you make it so goddamn hard to get all the paperwork! My cousin is going through the whole process of getting a new green card and it's taking forever, during which time she of course can't leave the country (difficult when she wants to come back for Christmas).

Although, we do actually have a similar problem here - for all the publicity about 'boat people', the largest number of illegal immigrants in this country are actually Brits and Kiwis who overstay their visa (and work when their visa conditions don't allow it, etc etc)

Oh, and from what I know of it the wall will be a waste of money. Surely there's more effective, and cheaper, ways to combat the problem


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:55 am 
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harry Wrote:
Bram Stroker's LooGAR Wrote:
1. Mexes
2. I think it would be cheaper and more effective to do a daily fucking napalm swoop than build this wall.


Now let's assume you were talking about African Americans... and you sorta pulled the ha-ha chain in the same way... no one would think it's funny but a few crabby and smelly racists in .... oh, right, nevemind.


Of course not. Certain races are allowed to be made fun of. You can say white people have small dicks all you want or can't dance. But say black people run faster and WHOAH, you might lose your job. Last time I checked you can say WOP but can't say the derogatory word for peoples of African decent. Just the way it is.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:17 am 
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on seconmd thought, i totally want the wall, so we can make history and tear it down!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:05 am 
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Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
Of course not. Certain races are allowed to be made fun of. You can say white people have small dicks all you want or can't dance. But say black people run faster and WHOAH, you might lose your job. Last time I checked you can say WOP but can't say the derogatory word for peoples of African decent. Just the way it is.



While not wanting to make this a serious discussion... I suspect you think this because of some nasty principle of "political correctness"... in fact it is about white privilege and dominant culture. I am white, fast tracked to privilege in current culture, and you get to laugh at my dick. Tradeoffs, huh?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:50 am 
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The question isn't whether illegal immigration is a bad thing for the country.

It is a disaster, and both sides know it.

Every other country in the world has a stricter policy than the US on illegal immigration. No other country hands out hundreds of thousands of dollars in education and health care to anybody who decides to sneak into the country. No other country just lets their education system take a huge hit, and taxes their own citizens to support the carnage.

Mexico? Good luck if you try to be an "undocumented worker" there. You'll find yourself staring down the barrel of a gun real quick. See, when it is happening in their own country, suddenly they realize how harmful it is. Bringing up Canada is a joke, just look up their immigration policies.

The US has the most lenient policies by far, but illegal immigration also rears its ugly head there. It prevents us from implementing a better immigration program, because we have no way to stop people from cheating it. We should be allowing more legal immigration, but the whole system is destroyed by illegal immigration. Too bad for people who don't live close enough to sneak in.


Having said all that... I'm not sure what my position on the issue is.

Yes, it is an unmitigated disaster for citizens of the US. But illegal immigrants are people too. Is it moral to steal bread to feed your starving family? I think it is. I know that if I were on the other side, I would have no remorse coming here illegally.

So while I do wish we had more control over who can get into the country, I don't think we should enact the strict anti immigration programs other countries have, let alone the horrendous anti immigration programs of our hypocritical neighbors to the south.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:55 am 
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harry Wrote:
Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
Of course not. Certain races are allowed to be made fun of. You can say white people have small dicks all you want or can't dance. But say black people run faster and WHOAH, you might lose your job. Last time I checked you can say WOP but can't say the derogatory word for peoples of African decent. Just the way it is.



While not wanting to make this a serious discussion... I suspect you think this because of some nasty principle of "political correctness"... in fact it is about white privilege and dominant culture. I am white, fast tracked to privilege in current culture, and you get to laugh at my dick. Tradeoffs, huh?


Don't disagree. Just sayin' for the most part racial humor is at least somewhat okay as long as it doesn't involve black people. I could care less about it. I mean for a long time in this country, you had to be WASP to be fast tracked to privilege, but it's still okay to make fun of EYE-Talians or mexicans or native americans for that matter.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:17 pm 
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Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
but it's still okay to make fun of EYE-Talians


that's only because we're not quick enough to resopnd because we do so much talking with our hands.


AH hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


*sigh*


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:19 pm 
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We can't call black people niggers but white people can still be called crackers, or Indian people like myself can still be called Pakis, coolies, or "Apu". Yup there is a definite double standard. Sorry we weren't also enslaved for 200+ years.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:21 pm 
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Listen, Jim, if you're going to go around wearing a coolie, you've got to accept the consequences.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:24 pm 
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Bedroom Demos

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The funny thing is, most ethnic people try their best NOT to perpetuate stereotypes that MIGHT'VE been true like 100 years ago, but too many ignorant people still believe we all smell like curry, chinese people smell like fish, or latinos eat tacos.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:32 pm 
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Jim Beam Wrote:
The funny thing is, most ethnic people try their best NOT to perpetuate stereotypes that MIGHT'VE been true like 100 years ago, but too many ignorant people still believe we all smell like curry, chinese people smell like fish, or latinos eat tacos.


but asians ARE bad drivers. I SWEAR. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Bedroom Demos

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This is true. When I was little, driving with my mom was a hazard! She would drive too slow, or drive way too fast, jerk on the brakes, or not check her blind spot. When I turned 16, that job was mine haha.


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