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 Post subject: Politics thread '06: How should the Dems proceed?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:02 pm 
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Bedroom Demos
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It seems to me that the Democrats should attempt to pass legislation along the lines of minimum wage increases and stem cell research funding, because if Bush vetoes these measures it will only damage the Republitards in the '08 elections. This seems to be the best approach, rather than resorting to threats of impeachment or other partisan divisiveness. Clinton had a 65% approval rating in '98 when the Gingrinches tried to impeach him. I would like Bush's head on a platter as much as the next guy, but the Dems surely would gain a further foothold on Congress by exposing Bush's unwillingness to cooperate and carry out this new mandate established by the recent elections. Iraq is an entirely different beast, though. We never should have gone into that country in 2003, but what a quandary for the libs. John Kerry, Hillary Clinton and many other Dems went along with that bullshit invasion three and a half years ago, so it is disingenuous for them to suddenly want to cut and run, which is why Howard Dean was so appealing to me back then. He acknowledged that it was a mistake from the beginning, and I agree, but we can't just leave Iraq now that Bush has committed to that region. What a clusterfuck. How can we tell the Iraqi's "Well Bush fucked up, buh bye." This sucks.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:31 pm 
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Failed Reunion
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Nothing good is coming from Iraq. Does anyone really think we can make an iota of progress? I'm starting to buy the formalized breakup of the country.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:31 pm 
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For starters, if you give two shits about "Culture of Corruption" and earmark reform, you don't give jackshit to John Murtha nor Robert Byrd. Apparently Abramoff gave the feds the dirt on Harry Reid, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Politics thread '06: How should the Dems proceed?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:50 pm 
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cut and run


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:56 pm 
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Go Platinum
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throw a totally bitchin' kegger.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:01 pm 
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Death To Shoegaze666 Wrote:
throw a totally bitchin' kegger.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:02 pm 
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frostingspoon
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We could always arm the Kurds. We've armed people before so I'm told.

Or we could just send in Jack O'Neil and Teal'c armed with liquid naquadah staves.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:24 am 
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frostingspoon
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Saint Wrote:
Does anyone really think we can make an iota of progress?

I think people's opinion on progress is skewed because the administration overpromised and underdelivered. Just because things didn't go as expected doesn't equate to total failure or lost cause. I never wanted us there in the first place, but the harsh reality is that we're there and from a military standpoint we can keep this pace as long as needed and still file things under "acceptable losses." Cutting and running would only grow disdain in the region and give terrorists more/better recruiting opportunities. I'm not convinced our invasion was ever related to terrorism, but I know our current struggle is. A high school buddy of mine (ex-Army) wrote some things about it here, and I found them pretty enlightening.

I like the legislation vs. impeachment idea, but its has to be somewhat centrist and reasonable if the goal is making Bush coming off as uncooperative to a majority of Americans. Alternative energy research would be a great litmus test for this.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:15 am 
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Sketch, you need to post your friends blog entry. Everyone here should read that.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:01 am 
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frostingspoon
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Sketch Wrote:
I'm not convinced our invasion was ever related to terrorism, but I know our current struggle is. A high school buddy of mine (ex-Army) wrote some things about it here, and I found them pretty enlightening.


I have a few problems with your friend's statements.

Quote:
What? Really? For a nation at WAR? Maybe I'm cynical, but after September 11th, I would have had 15 second ads running every hour on every major TV network showing the WTC collapsing, and then a very simple message: We're going to fight back. We need your help. www.goarmy.com.


9/11 & Iraq aren't related. Even then.

Quote:
I believe the problem with Vietnam wasn't one related to media coverage, but that it was a failure to engage the American people in participating. They felt helpless, they couldn't contribute, and Americans don't like to feel helpless while our troops are getting shot up.


I don't believe it was media coverage, but I don't think it was helplessness either. I think it was three-fold.
• Most Americans can't find Vietnam on a map. (Just like Iraq.)
• Vietnamese people don't look like "Americans". (Europeans do. Japanese don't, but they decided to bomb us, so we had no choice. Iraqis don't.)
• The Draft.

There are still people out there who believe we could have won in Vietnam, and that we pulled up short and gave up. They are probably right, but what do you win? You get donkeys behind Curtain #1, #2 and #3.

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The last comment I have is the most terrifying, but I have to get it out there: I don't care what the American people think about our progress in Iraq. They don't have enough information to make a real decision, they are too emotional, and they are nearly completely ignorant on matters of military affairs.…This is why we have elected officials and a professional standing military: So that they can spend the time needed to learn about how to judge these issues.


The American people may be too emotional, but it is their sons & daughters that are being sent to die in the desert, not the sons & daughters of the elected officials. The elected officials & standing military work for us. And if we are sinking billions upon billions of our money to get our kids killed in this war, I think we are quite justified in giving up on this particular brand of New Coke.

Also, I take issue with the assumption that cutting & running will breed more disdain in the region. One of our biggest problems in the Middle East is that we prop up who we like and try to strike down who we don't. Hosni Mubarak has been President of Egypt for 25 years. Egypt has also been in an official State of Emergency for 25 years since Sadat was assassinated, and Mubarak replaced him. We also prop up the Saudis, who break out in a rash if you even whisper the word "democracy".

On the other hand, this year we had two Middle East democracies engage in conflict: Lebanon & Israel. The idea that democracies ensure against violent conflicts is bogus. And that's without even getting into the fucked up lines the Europeans drew that mixed up all sorts of opposition ethnic groups within new nations.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:09 am 
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http://www.obner.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t ... epublicans

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I've recently noticed that all the unfortunate events in the lives of blues singers all seem to rhyme... I think all these tragedies could be avoided with a good rhyming dictionary.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:20 am 
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this isn't a good start
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15721403/

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:44 am 
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frostingspoon
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Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:


Morons.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:09 pm 
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frostingspoon
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Good stuff, Fu.

Elvis Fu Wrote:
9/11 & Iraq aren't related. Even then.

Excellent point, and I agree. I still think Matt's critique of the Administration (and ad example) can still apply, though. Declaring war on terrorism and telling Americans to still lead normal, at-peace lives at the same time did nothing for the Afghanistan conflict.

Quote:
I don't believe [the problem in Vietnam] was media coverage, but I don't think it was helplessness either. I think it was three-fold.
• Most Americans can't find Vietnam on a map. (Just like Iraq.)
• Vietnamese people don't look like "Americans". (Europeans do. Japanese don't, but they decided to bomb us, so we had no choice. Iraqis don't.)
• The Draft.

There are still people out there who believe we could have won in Vietnam, and that we pulled up short and gave up. They are probably right, but what do you win? You get donkeys behind Curtain #1, #2 and #3.

...

The American people may be too emotional, but it is their sons & daughters that are being sent to die in the desert, not the sons & daughters of the elected officials. The elected officials & standing military work for us. And if we are sinking billions upon billions of our money to get our kids killed in this war, I think we are quite justified in giving up on this particular brand of New Coke.

This shifts the discussion from "winnable" to "worth winning." While they are often enmeshed when people talk about Iraq, they can be totally different conversations. Matt's post focuses on the former, and I read Saint's post as speaking to the former (but could easily speak to both). One of the main reasons I opposed the war because I didn't see the long-term benefit of it even with success. Apart from the fact that we're now already in it, I still don't. I never bought into the terrorism or WMD links.

Fiscal considerations are a valid point and something Matt only referenced indirectly ('where are the war bonds?'). Maybe the administration knew this was a hard enough sell that they figured a tax hike or any attempt at non-tax revenue generation would be a deal-breaker... or maybe they really thought it would be easier than this.

Yes, ideologically, a democratic government is meant to serve the people. It is the elected officials' responsibility to sell any military action as worth dying/paying for, and they've done a shitty job of it ever since 'Mission Accomplished.'

Quote:
Also, I take issue with the assumption that cutting & running will breed more disdain in the region. One of our biggest problems in the Middle East is that we prop up who we like and try to strike down who we don't. Hosni Mubarak has been President of Egypt for 25 years. Egypt has also been in an official State of Emergency for 25 years since Sadat was assassinated, and Mubarak replaced him. We also prop up the Saudis, who break out in a rash if you even whisper the word "democracy".

On the other hand, this year we had two Middle East democracies engage in conflict: Lebanon & Israel. The idea that democracies ensure against violent conflicts is bogus. And that's without even getting into the fucked up lines the Europeans drew that mixed up all sorts of opposition ethnic groups within new nations.

To me, staying in Iraq is not about promoting democracy. It is about accepting responsibility for our choices and honoring our commitments. I don't think propping up and striking down would be as much of a problem if said allies and enemies didn't keep changing at our convenience. Perhaps we're just not selective enough in choosing allies, and your Egypt example speaks to that. We supported Saddam against Iran, and the thing that troubles me most about Bush & Co. labeling him as evil was that I heard no acknowledgment that the prior alliance was a mistake or even short-sighted.

We support Afghanistan against Soviet invasion, then we fuck off. We encourage a Kurdish uprising against Saddam during the first Iraq war, then we leave them to get slaughtered once Saddam is out of Kuwait. In my eyes, leaving the region at this level of unstability is more of the same. We might get points for consistency, but I don't like it as long-term foreign policy. Then again, in this case, maybe individual lives are more important than national integrity.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:12 pm 
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Bedroom Demos
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Saint Wrote:
Nothing good is coming from Iraq. Does anyone really think we can make an iota of progress? I'm starting to buy the formalized breakup of the country.


If by that you mean slicing up Iraq into three new nations comprising the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis, I couldn't agree more. My Junior year of college in 1995 (pre-Osama malfeasance) I took a course in Middle East Politics and the core of the cirriculum revolved around the fact that post-WWI European countries arbitrarily created borders in that region, drawn up by the former League of Nations, and thus fractured these people into "nations" under which they had no allegiance. Bedouins who used to roam about the region as hunter-gatherers suddenly were forced to stay within these arbitrarily created borders and they had nothing in common with newly established neighbors like the Kurds or other Islamic peoples. How this Bush administration could ever have thought these people would have a greater allegiance to the nation of Iraq than they would to their own sectarian religious group is inexcusable. Neo-cons created their own fantasy world that contravened a 70-year old reality. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and their ilk truly believed democracy could flourish in a region where disparate people who have nothing in common culturally are trapped by a Eurocentrically imposed border. History will surely judge this ineptitude as arrogant and misinformed. But that is what Bush is most proud of, not being informed, he trusts his imaginary friend Jesus. Former alcoholics are the most obnoxious people on the plantet. Have a drink George, you are a pompous ass when you are sober.


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