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 Post subject: whats your limit on musical self indulgence?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:35 pm 
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the joanna newsom thread got me thinking, since they were a lot of people who said it was self-indulgent (and i dont disagree). a lot of other bands are viewed as self-indulgent (tool, smashing pumpkins, mars volta of the top of my head). so what is your limit on self-indulgence? do you have a limit? do you have an album that straddles the line? for me, kate bush's last album walked the line. having a song where she sang the first gazillion numbers of pi was more than a little ridiculous, but i thought she made up for it on the rest of the album. thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:41 pm 
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The first thing that comes to mind is the last track on Six Organs of Admittance's latest album. Love the rest of the album, but 23 minutes of noise to close out an album...COME ON!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:02 am 
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i don't even think about that shit.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:10 am 
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Dalen Wrote:
i don't even think about that shit.


Normally I don't either. I could only think of that one example.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:16 am 
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There's lots of times that I'll just skip something that's testing the limits of my Ghandi-like patience. One specific example is "Less Than You Think" off A Ghost is Born. I played that song once and that was it. Frankly it left a negative impression overall for the entire album, which I'm attributing to a recency effect.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:25 am 
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I go for indulgence, even over-indulgence, never self-indulgence.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:21 am 
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Dalen Wrote:
i don't even think about that shit.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:49 am 
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DumpJack Wrote:
There's lots of times that I'll just skip something that's testing the limits of my Ghandi-like patience. One specific example is "Less Than You Think" off A Ghost is Born. I played that song once and that was it. Frankly it left a negative impression overall for the entire album, which I'm attributing to a recency effect.


What the hell is a "recency effect"?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:33 am 
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Finch Platte Wrote:
What the hell is a "recency effect"?


Quote:
The recency effect, in psychology, is a cognitive bias that results from disproportionate salience of recent stimuli or observations. For example, if a driver sees an equal total number of red cars as blue cars during a long journey, but there happens to be a glut of red cars at the end of the journey, he or she is likely to conclude that there were more red cars than blue cars throughout the drive.

The inverse of this effect is the primacy effect. The recency effect is compatible with the peak-end rule.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:49 am 
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DumpJack Wrote:
Finch Platte Wrote:
What the hell is a "recency effect"?


Quote:
The recency effect, in psychology, is a cognitive bias that results from disproportionate salience of recent stimuli or observations. For example, if a driver sees an equal total number of red cars as blue cars during a long journey, but there happens to be a glut of red cars at the end of the journey, he or she is likely to conclude that there were more red cars than blue cars throughout the drive.

The inverse of this effect is the primacy effect. The recency effect is compatible with the peak-end rule.


Whoa. You're all, like, smart and shit. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:50 am 
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DumpJack Wrote:
Finch Platte Wrote:
What the hell is a "recency effect"?


Quote:
The recency effect, in psychology, is a cognitive bias that results from disproportionate salience of recent stimuli or observations. For example, if a driver sees an equal total number of red cars as blue cars during a long journey, but there happens to be a glut of red cars at the end of the journey, he or she is likely to conclude that there were more red cars than blue cars throughout the drive.

The inverse of this effect is the primacy effect. The recency effect is compatible with the peak-end rule.


Ahh, thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:16 pm 
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that first track on shellac's futurist is kind of self-indulging
and the first track on terraform is the same way
its that super minimalist dragged out shit
usually drives my girlfriend out of the room
but i can dig it

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:27 pm 
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The first Mars Volta album I could take, the second I couldn't...so I guess that highlights my limit.

In general, I can't take self-indulgence when I think it isn't justified by the person/group's actual performance. With Mars Volta, their second album just wasn't that good in my opinion, or at least it was just more of the same. Likewise, if that Wilco song on AGIB was actually interesting and well-done, I would still think it self-indulgent but would overlook that.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:27 pm 
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I can't really describe the limit. But I guess Liars kind of overdid it on the last track of They Threw Us In a Trench...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:31 pm 
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Gayford R. Tincture

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Sketch Wrote:
Dalen Wrote:
i don't even think about that shit.


Artists should create what they feel is the best work they can make. I'm probably as guilty as anyone else, but throwing out terms like "self-indulgent" and "pretentious" is usually just a lazy way of dressing up the fact that you don't like something. It doesn't really say much about anything other than that you lack the patience or the inclination to understand or enjoy whatever it is you're talking about.

Joanna Newsom's album is ambitious. Whether or not it's "petentious" is up to the listener, and I don't think it's necessarily bad that a piece of music assumes an air of "self-importance". Should everything always be humble, simple, and unassuming? Wouldn't that get a little boring after a while? If no one ever tried for anything big then more often than not they'd end up mimicking others or repeating themselves.

There are naturally pieces of "pretentious", "self-indulgent", epic music that I can't stand but that just has to do with their particular style and/or what I perceive as a lack of substance.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:32 pm 
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Kit Wrote:
But I guess Liars kind of overdid it on the last track of They Threw Us In a Trench...

kind of?! as if that album weren't horrendous enough as is...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:04 pm 
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Drinky Wrote:
Sketch Wrote:
Dalen Wrote:
i don't even think about that shit.


Artists should create what they feel is the best work they can make. I'm probably as guilty as anyone else, but throwing out terms like "self-indulgent" and "pretentious" is usually just a lazy way of dressing up the fact that you don't like something. It doesn't really say much about anything other than that you lack the patience or the inclination to understand or enjoy whatever it is you're talking about.

Joanna Newsom's album is ambitious. Whether or not it's "petentious" is up to the listener, and I don't think it's necessarily bad that a piece of music assumes an air of "self-importance". Should everything always be humble, simple, and unassuming? Wouldn't that get a little boring after a while? If no one ever tried for anything big then more often than not they'd end up mimicking others or repeating themselves.

There are naturally pieces of "pretentious", "self-indulgent", epic music that I can't stand but that just has to do with their particular style and/or what I perceive as a lack of substance.


So if you perceive an artist's music to be "pretentious" it's because the music lacks substance, but if others use that particular descriptor they lack patience, are lazy or maybe they just don't have the intelligence to grasp the artist's true intent?

I think I speak for all lazy, impatient board members when I say thank you, Drinky, for being here and alerting us peons as to what is, and what is not, pretentious.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:15 pm 
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DumpJack Wrote:
I think I speak for all lazy, impatient board members when I say thank you, Drinky, for being here and alerting us peons as to what is, and what is not, pretentious.


You have my proxy, sir.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:29 pm 
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xiu xiu


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:44 pm 
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Gayford R. Tincture

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DumpJack Wrote:
Drinky Wrote:
Sketch Wrote:
Dalen Wrote:
i don't even think about that shit.


Artists should create what they feel is the best work they can make. I'm probably as guilty as anyone else, but throwing out terms like "self-indulgent" and "pretentious" is usually just a lazy way of dressing up the fact that you don't like something. It doesn't really say much about anything other than that you lack the patience or the inclination to understand or enjoy whatever it is you're talking about.

Joanna Newsom's album is ambitious. Whether or not it's "petentious" is up to the listener, and I don't think it's necessarily bad that a piece of music assumes an air of "self-importance". Should everything always be humble, simple, and unassuming? Wouldn't that get a little boring after a while? If no one ever tried for anything big then more often than not they'd end up mimicking others or repeating themselves.

There are naturally pieces of "pretentious", "self-indulgent", epic music that I can't stand but that just has to do with their particular style and/or what I perceive as a lack of substance.


So if you perceive an artist's music to be "pretentious" it's because the music lacks substance, but if others use that particular descriptor they lack patience, are lazy or maybe they just don't have the intelligence to grasp the artist's true intent?

I think I speak for all lazy, impatient board members when I say thank you, Drinky, for being here and alerting us peons as to what is, and what is not, pretentious.


I'm just saying it's an overused term and that I try to avoid it. I threw in that last sentence to keep people from their usual tired generalization of trying to say that I love all things artsy.

I'm just throwing my two cents into the dicussion. My point was people always throw out the word "pretentious" like it's somehow saying something specific and like it's always a bad thing. I in no way was "alerting" anyone as to what is or is not pretentious. You pulled that out of your ass. And I said I'm as guilty of it as anyone else. It's all right up there in that post you quoted. Try reading it again.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:47 pm 
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Dalen Wrote:
i don't even think about that shit.


Succinctly said, If I did, I'd either be closed-minded or truly a pretentious asshole.
I don't like people who consciously avoid something that might be self-indulgent nor do I consciously seek it out.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:31 pm 
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katie, a princess Wrote:
xiu xiu


i like xiu xiu but i can see how they'd be pretentious.

i think the only stuff i can't stand is mars volta/math rock type shit where they're just diddling around on their instruments for an unreasonable amount of time.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:38 pm 
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I don't like Mars Volta or Xiu Xiu, but I don't necessarily think it's because they're any more self-indulgent than a lot of other stuff I do like. Mars Volta, maybe, but I think the problem is more that they never had anything to say.

I don't think Xiu Xiu is without substance, but I've just never connected with whatever it is that's at the heart of their songs.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:43 pm 
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xiu xiu is my limit.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:44 pm 
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As soon as melody is sacrificed for "depth", I'm done.

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