everyone is entitled to their opinion, but would you mind expanding on this? Im seriously interested.

I agree on both counts. But just because they're overrated doesn't mean they're not HOFers. They are. But Ripken got the third best percentage ever (and one of those ahead of him, Nolan Ryan, is also overrated). And remember, I'm an Orioles fan.

i thought of Ripken as overrated until i thought of him in context of him being a short stop and the era that he played.

Oh yeah, he was a great, great player, even without The Streak. But third best percentage ever?

To me 3000 hits is enough to make someone a HoFer. Not so much on 500 HRs (at least not anymore).

If 500 isn't enough...how many is? McGwire is 7th all time in HR....is Bonds not an HOFer either. Are all power hitters from the last 20 years ineligible because they might have juiced?

I'd assume that voters are just waiting for the dust to settle a bit on the steriods story. No one wants to regret a vote or be embarrassed if more comes out about McGwire. But the guy was a stud and whatever we all think we knew, we know nothing. We don't know how many pitchers he faced were on juice and how many lesser players from his era were on juice or with 100% certainty whether he was.

I'd guess voters will give it a few years and if there aren't any major revelations and he conducts himself ok in the meantime, he gets in. And that's how it should be.

I see. What's a good ratio then?

Mickey Mantle- 536 HR, 1710 SO
Frank Robinson - 586 HR, 1532 SO
Ty Cobb - 117 HR, 357 SO (just to go with a non-HR hitter)

Just a few examples. Certainly there are those who didn't SO a lot as well. But it's just one more stat.

I think he should be in and i think he will eventually. He was obviously one of the most feared hitters in the league for 10+ years and he has the numbers to back it up. I could care less about the roids issue.


I can't wait until Bonds finally comes up for election and we get hear about for 6 months leading up to the announcement.

Raffy Palmero?

good point.

i guess it all comes down to whether or not he cheated in order to hit all those homeruns. it might not ever be proved either way...

What about players taking "greenies"? That's cheating to get an edge.

Setting aside the issue of whether taking performance enhancing drugs when there are no rules about them is cheating, should we kick out Gaylord Perry and George Brett? We know they cheated.

i read a piece a few years ago that hinted at gaylord perry not cheating nearly as much as it's perceived he did, but because he cheated a bunch, it was constantly assumed he did, even when he was totally clean. and he worked that to his advantage.

You talking pine tar or rape here ?

Z- do you read baseballthinkfactory.org? The run a voting thing called the Hall of Merit where they go year by year and create their own hall. I haven't followed it too closely, but I know there are a lot of players in the real Hall not in their hall, and a few vice versa (notably Joe Jackson). Not sure what year they're up to now. You might be interested.

EDIT: Here's their results for 1992, the last year they did: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/fil ... 2_results/

Not sure where the full list is, but if you scroll down in the comments, someone listed HOF-not-HOM and HOM-not-HOF.

the other thing to keep in mind regarding the steroid problem when it comes to the hall of fame is this: it isn't just power hitters by a long shot. there has been one red sox player who has gotten in trouble for steroids and that was... manny alexander!!! so if you think you can easily tell, think again. not everyone is using them to hit home runs. most guys are just trying to get/keep their jobs.

no, i've never read that site before. i'm sure i'll dig through it at some point this week when my agenda's not too full. thanks for the link.

Yep. I always use Marvin Benard as an example when people claim they can see steroid use just by looking at someone.

Meanwhile, I believe the majority of the players to be suspended so far are pitchers.

I've always thought the Gaylord Perry argument for cheaters was pretty dumb. Obviously there's degrees to everything. Life isn't black & white. And you can debate whether spit balls qualifies to altering the capabilities of your body, but I think the general consensus will always be that it isn't the same. And NOBODY doesn't realize that crappy players use steroids too, so that's no revelation either.

McGwire isn't getting in because he fails the eyeball test, which to a certain degree is fair for a guy who is going in because he's a power hitter. It's because a former teammate wrote a book about them sticking each other in the ass and when called to Congress about it, he didn't quite give the impression that he didn't use them.

No one will ever no the whole story and guys who cheated will get in (Roger Clemens) but it's up to the individual sports writers, who can make any criteria they want. After that it's up to personal opinion. My personal opinion is that McGwire would have probably been a borderline hall of famer without steroids. Worse guys are in the hall but I wasn't around to elect them.

I may be wrong here, but I think he was only ever actually caught/thrown out of a game one time.

Gossage is in next year. Everyone else lost ground this year due to Ripken and Gwynn (which totally doesn't make sense, see below) but Gossage still gained and was borderline. I hope Tim Raines makes it next year.

So Dawson, Blyleven, and Rice had fewer votes this year than last. Presumably this is because Ripken and Gwynn were on the ballot as slam dunks this year. Does this mean that suddenly, because of who else was on the ballot, specific writers decided that people they voted for in the past weren't HOFers anymore? That's ridiculous. Writers are allowed to change their minds, so if that's the reason that's fine, but if they vote for them again next year, that's hilariously stupid.

They're allowed to vote for a lot more players than they actually vote for. Fucking sportswriters need to have their tweed elbow pads shoved up their asses until leather bleeds out their eyes.

Cal Ripken is pretty much the best baseball player ever outside of The Babe & The Mick.

You serious Clark?

He's Dale Murphy + durability....which rightfully gets him in the hall, but I don't know that either dude you list is better than Willie Mays.