...because any other answer would require work?

no because we could go round and round about this, but a) I'm right and b) you're a knee jerk liberal bush hater. -- neither of us is going to come to a newfound realization that the other is giving out TEH GOODZ.

...

You ok today?

bush has to be the worst elected president ever. who could be worse? really? what has bush done outside of take out saddam, which doesn't count for much since guys in the bush admin were partly responsible for propping him up in the first place, ? i guess i like the reduction of the dividend tax...

i'll admit i'm biased vs dumya, but what has he really done for U.S., for the record?

I'm honsetly surprised if anyone other than Sensei wants to make a run at saying otherwise, Paladisiac. Well, maybe the finer points, but in general no.

Do we actually need to discuss the fact that he's been a terrible president, or are we that starved for conflict?

I'm not gonna defend the dude, because is truly Dr. Doltenstein, but the out and out hatred is tedious to me.

It's beneath you?

Yeah, I think the right's out and out hatred of TEH CLIN-TONs is tedious, too. And, more importantly it stops anything from getting done.

I agree with everything except your chucking of me into that camp (and not yourself).

Ummm...Harding, Hoover, Grant, Johnson (Andrew)

He's kept the Fed under solid leadership, so despite oil nearing $80 a barrell, the US economy didn't tank.

He also managed the Hainan island brouhaha fairly well.

Like it or not, his post-9/11 security agenda has been effective...we've thwarted a number of attacks and made it much more difficult to perpetrate organized terrorism stateside. It's no coincidence that Al Quaida attacks are taking place in Europe and Africa rather than in the US.

I'm no fan of the guy, I disagree with a lot of his platform and policies. However, I don't think that after the dust settles he'll be considered a "bottom five" president.

well said billz. I hate him perhaps more than most people here and for entirely differently reasons, but still recognize that there's been many that were far worse. People here often have no perspective.

Its a problem not limited to here, unfortunately.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that "History will redeem him" Iraq is inextractable...it is a permanent problem, and an entirely different permanent problem than terrorism, though it has EXACERBATED that problem.

He was dealt a shitty hand, and instead of playing it perfectly, he fell into the trap set for him, and now is basically all in, waiting on the river.

No other president starts this war, and any other Republican president really would have presided over 30-45 years of Republican control. Instead, he pursued a hyper-partisan agenda, designed to divide and conquer. I think the funniest/saddest thing about the Bush II presidency will be the opportunities lost perspective. I don't hate him, I pity him.

So we're back to where we were a page ago, minus your inexplicable love of Rudy.

I think I explicated my love quite nicely in my first or second post. Just because you don't understand political reality, doesn't mean that I can't like a flawed candidate.

So you just like him.

Cool.



Now stop with the insults.

hurling insults is the key to any good argument.

Actually Kyle, I'll make some sense of the Rudy thing:

Chris Mathews said on Imus, "I'm just tired of these guys and their fucking ranches..." which I think says a lot...People are perhaps prepared for a big city guy after decade upon decade of Southern and Western governors and whatnot. Your answer to this is that "Well Obama is a big city guy, and an outsider etc. and Rudy has all this baggage, etc", but in truth, Obama is probably still too green for most Americans and Rudy does represent that whole standing up on 9/11 thing that let's face it, is the ONLY real political capital that GWB still has or frankly ever had. 9/11 still carries a lot of juice.

Shit, if there were serious anti-war demonstations going on right now, I'd say Rudy wins this election in a landslide just because even if people hate the war, they dont want to see that, and he can run on the "law and order" thing like Nixon did in '68.

And don't get it twisted, I dont love Rudy like you've already intimated; he just makes me think and I have the ability to be completely non-partisan in looking at this shit, because politics is my celebrity gossip, sports and reality TV all rolled into one when its on this level.

Did Matthews really drop an f-bomb on Imus? I love that guy.

Yeah, they dumped out of it on radio but it made it on to MSNBC--i nearly spit out my coffee.

I hope that if Rudy wins, he names Ed Koch to his cabinet.

Yeah, it was awesome. I laughed so loud femgar heard me from teh shower.

also, dunno if y'all are watching Hardball, but Craig Crawford(?) just dropped the biggie: Obama's poll numbers are the worst among people who "would never vote a Muslim."

If you want I will teach a course in polling later, but let's just say that should give you a big peek into how he gets taken down in either the primary or the general.

And, I kinda can't look at this with just my heart, because at this point, who is elected/nominated when and where effects my livelihood.

also, who TEH FUCK is the sorry ass old cross eyed on Hardball, Kurtz?

I don't remember doing that. If I did I apologize - I wasn't under that impression at all.

Loog is just hitting the only play button on his controller, as always, and I was just hoping he'd try and explain it (like you did). It'd be cool to get some rational thought out of him that didn't come with Fuck You sauce all over it.

I'm not watching, but Craig Crawford and the British guy who covers the White House for Newsweek have become my two favorite talking heads recently.

Also, to your Muslim thing, I was flipping around XM earlier and hit the Fox Noise Radio Channel for long enough to hear John Gibson refer to BO as "Osama Bin Barak Obama or whatever it is"