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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:05 pm 
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frostingspoon
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No, it's not mutilation. But it's not necessary. Until recently health providers made it seem like kids would be social outcasts if parents didn't agree to it.

And, it would have been nice if I'd known about my son's condition before the procedure was done. He has had years worth of physical therapy to condition his body to accept and decipher physical stimula and can handle most things well, but as a newborn, he had no ability to shut off or filter anything. His nervous system was at 100% all the time.

That said, he got over it quickly. It was more a matter of my wife and me being pissed off then later researching the issue and realizing it wasn't necessary.

My gripe was that the health care providers presented it as nearly a social and health imperative. They didn't present it as a matter of preference, but as something that would keep Connor from feeling "different."

Particularly when the doctor said "You're circumcised right? How do you think your son will feel if he grows up feeling 'different' from other males he knows?"

Doc, my boy's different all right, but foreskin is the least of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:09 pm 
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Also, I think my first impression of a foreskin when I was a kid wasn't that it was a cover, it was that some poor kid had gotten his dick head chopped off. Horrifying.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:11 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Also, I think my first impression of a foreskin when I was a kid wasn't that it was a cover, it was that some poor kid had gotten his dick head chopped off. Horrifying.


They're in training for History Of The World, Pt. 2 if Mel ever gets around to making it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:43 pm 
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a bigger boat Wrote:
I think it's an unnecessary procedure and that it's weird to snip off a piece of a newborn baby with a sharp instrument.

I also resent that my doctor convinced me to have my son circumcised for "health reasons" and because "he won't feel it or
remember it."


Doctor was correct -- definitely positive health outcomes in the form of reduction in STDs and cancer. Until the past couple years, no anesthetic was used. Now a regional anesthic is administered; and if there is any crying, it's usually to the kid being cold during the procedure more than anything else. You're correct in your opinion that it isn't a necessary procedure, but it is a relatively minor procudure with little or no risk; and over the course of a lifetime has possible health benefits.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:02 pm 
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i think everyone should send their circumcised male children to africa to fuck whoever they see without a dome on. and by the way the cdc in america does not recommend circumcision even in light of the new hiv evidence.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:06 pm 
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Fever, Buck T. Wrote:
a bigger boat Wrote:
I think it's an unnecessary procedure and that it's weird to snip off a piece of a newborn baby with a sharp instrument.

I also resent that my doctor convinced me to have my son circumcised for "health reasons" and because "he won't feel it or
remember it."


Doctor was correct -- definitely positive health outcomes in the form of reduction in STDs and cancer. Until the past couple years, no anesthetic was used. Now a regional anesthic is administered; and if there is any crying, it's usually to the kid being cold during the procedure more than anything else. You're correct in your opinion that it isn't a necessary procedure, but it is a relatively minor procedure with little or no risk; and over the course of a lifetime has possible health benefits.


Definite positive health outcomes re: STD & cancer? Again, I'll but a fin on behavior having much more impact than foreskin. Also, pretty much every other country in the world leaves baby boys intact. Do they have significantly higher rates of STD and/or penis-related cancers? I'm open to evidence on that if you have any.

I don't understand the thinking that babies are born wrong. Humans have been around for a long damn time, and I bet the snipped ones greatly outnumbered by the intact ones, with no significant prevalence of disease that skips the circumcised.

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Last edited by Elvis Fu on Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:12 pm 
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thrillhouse Wrote:
i think everyone should send their circumcised male children to africa to fuck whoever they see without a dome on. and by the way the cdc in america does not recommend circumcision even in light of the new hiv evidence.


Which still leaves the question why you are so very, very angry about it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:48 pm 
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Quote:
Again, I'll but a fin on behavior having much more impact than foreskin. Also, pretty much every other country in the world leaves baby boys intact. Do they have significantly higher rates of STD and/or penis-related cancers? I'm open to evidence on that if you have any.


You're right that behaviors are bigger predictors of both of those outcomes. But here's some other evidence about the possible positive outcomes of circumcison -- not stating any cause and effect mind you:

BMC Infect Dis. 2006 Nov 30;6:172. Links
Male circumcision, religion, and infectious diseases: an ecologic analysis of 118 developing countries.

CONCLUSION: Male circumcision(MC) was significantly associated with lower cervical cancer incidence and lower HIV prevalence in sub-Saharan Africa, independent of Muslim and Christian religion. As predicted, male circumcision was also strongly associated with lower HIV prevalence among countries with primarily heterosexual HIV transmission, but not among countries with primarily homosexual or injection drug use HIV transmission. These findings strengthen the reported biological link between MC and some sexually transmitted infectious diseases, including HIV and cervical cancer.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:24 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
konstantinl Wrote:
Ah, my beautiful little brain in a vat. You'll go to law school one day like your daddy. YES YOU WILL, BECAUSE I'M MAKING ALL YOUR FUTURE DECISIONS FOR YOU.


Oh, Darrin, you're just upset you weren't aborted.

Plus, you may have noticed that all of the other body parts you mentioned have an obvious function. Maybe in the heady days of pantslessness during the infant years of human civilization our members needed that extra inch of protection against the sandstorms and roving dogs. But those days are sadly behind us, so there's really no reason to get your foreskin in a bunch about this.


Well I'm also against married couples aborting healthy babies.

As for your argument about 'obvious function' then can I ask if you will have your infant childs tonsils, pinkie toe, appendex and nipples removed and keep their head shaved? All those body parts fulfill the criterion of having 'no obvious function'. Well, perhaps hair keeps your head warm but hats can do that and there is no such thing as hat lice.

I also not upset in the slightest, I was simply mocking your argument because it's ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:34 pm 
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frostingspoon
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konstantinl Wrote:
I also not upset in the slightest, I was simply mocking your argument because it's ridiculous.


The only point I was trying to make is that given that there are potential health benefits and no real harm associated with circumcision, it seems stupid to get angry about people doing it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:38 pm 
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Fever, Buck T. Wrote:
Quote:
Again, I'll but a fin on behavior having much more impact than foreskin. Also, pretty much every other country in the world leaves baby boys intact. Do they have significantly higher rates of STD and/or penis-related cancers? I'm open to evidence on that if you have any.


You're right that behaviors are bigger predictors of both of those outcomes. But here's some other evidence about the possible positive outcomes of circumcison -- not stating any cause and effect mind you:

BMC Infect Dis. 2006 Nov 30;6:172. Links
Male circumcision, religion, and infectious diseases: an ecologic analysis of 118 developing countries.

CONCLUSION: Male circumcision(MC) was significantly associated with lower cervical cancer incidence and lower HIV prevalence in sub-Saharan Africa, independent of Muslim and Christian religion. As predicted, male circumcision was also strongly associated with lower HIV prevalence among countries with primarily heterosexual HIV transmission, but not among countries with primarily homosexual or injection drug use HIV transmission. These findings strengthen the reported biological link between MC and some sexually transmitted infectious diseases, including HIV and cervical cancer.


Fair enough on that, but until I see massive cancer plagues across Europe, I doubt I'll be advocating circumcision.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:58 pm 
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I don't really think it matters a whole lot either way, but to me it's more of a "why not?" sort of thing.

The only real argument I've seen against it is that it is unnecessary. We do a lot of unnecessary things in our culture that have no possible health benefits and are far more dangerous so why would anyone be so against this?

I certainly don't feel like anyone should be pressured into circumcising their kids or that uncircumcised people should somehow feel like outcasts. I do think it's odd that anyone would try to claim that it's somehow wrong purely on the basis that it's unnatural. Pretty much our entire lives are unnatural at this point.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:01 pm 
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Friends; Brooklyn Bridge.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:32 pm 
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you know theres this thing called a condom

works better than chopping part of your junk off


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:05 pm 
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splates Wrote:
you know theres this thing called a condom

works better than chopping part of your junk off


exactly.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:11 pm 
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Drinky Wrote:
I don't really think it matters a whole lot either way, but to me it's more of a "why not?" sort of thing.

The only real argument I've seen against it is that it is unnecessary. We do a lot of unnecessary things in our culture that have no possible health benefits and are far more dangerous so why would anyone be so against this?

I certainly don't feel like anyone should be pressured into circumcising their kids or that uncircumcised people should somehow feel like outcasts. I do think it's odd that anyone would try to claim that it's somehow wrong purely on the basis that it's unnatural. Pretty much our entire lives are unnatural at this point.


Why don't we just start piercing the ears of our newborn baby girls. I mean, it's only unnecessary and cosmetic, but they would look so darn cute in their first pictures at Olan Mills.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:20 pm 
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Nothing like throwing out an arbitrary analogy when you're really desperate.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:23 pm 
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Drinky Wrote:
Nothing like throwing out an arbitrary analogy when you're really desperate.


To me it's more of a "why not?" thing, y'know? Unnatural living's harshing my gig.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:31 pm 
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My redneck cousin had her newborn daughter's ears pierced. It was kinda creepy.

As a non-junk-owner, do what you like. But it seems kinda pointless to me. Were I though some tragic set of circumstances to have a baby boy tomorrow, I would leave it be. And provide full sex ed at the appropriate juncture.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:38 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Drinky Wrote:
Nothing like throwing out an arbitrary analogy when you're really desperate.


To me it's more of a "why not?" thing, y'know? Unnatural living's harshing my gig.


Second tactic: employ vaguely insulting mimicry to somehow imply that's there's something obviously ridiculous about my above remarks even if you can't quite manage to articulate a real argument as to what that would be.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:14 am 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:

Fair enough on that, but until I see massive cancer plagues across Europe, I doubt I'll be advocating circumcision.


"The verdict's still out on science"

..just looking for an excuse to use that quote


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:12 am 
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Saint Wrote:
splates Wrote:
you know theres this thing called a condom

works better than chopping part of your junk off


exactly.


Or, god forbid, abstinence.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:03 am 
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Both of my kids are circumcized. Wouldn't have it any other way. I'm with the dog dick thing.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:04 am 
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