Very simply, Pennington clicks better with Coles than with Moss.

And speaking of Moss, the Raiders have now become the epitomy of evil by signing this thug. Sad thing is, I know Al Davis likes it that way.

We're talking Santana, not Randy. But I agree with your assessment of Davis.

dude, seriously, give it up. He's the best reciever in the league and they STOLE him from the Vikings who will regret this as much or more than the Herschel trade. If you wanted to get rid of "Thugs" then there goes 50% of the league.

Funny thing is, I haven't heard anyof his teammates complain about him, mainly just the media....

The vikings never won with Randy so i don't think this trade will kill them that bad. At least he wasn't a free agent who walked away. Maybe they should have got more for him but i don't think this trade is anywhere close to the Walker debacle. How many picks and players were given up for Walker?

The raiders look a lot better with Moss and Jordan in the fold. If only they could conjure up some D they may be decent.

They may not have "won" with him, but they did make the playoffs...made it pretty deep one year. Without Jake Reid and CCarter, and without Robert Smith they managed to eek out 10 wins and beat Green Bay in Green Bay. Seriously, Daunte's gonna learn some 300lb lessons next year..like when a 300lb lineman crushes him because he has no one to get the ball to.

If they get Plax and Braylon Edwards i may have to disagree with you. Obviously they're no Moss but it may allow them to do more with their offense then chuck it to Moss offense of the last few years.

I love it because i'm a packer fan who doesn't have to deal with the guy who killed us so often.

Maybe i'm biased. I'm just glad he's in the AFC.

I'm not really a Raider fan, I'm not a Minnesota fan, but I AM A MOSS FAN. I still remember throwing beers at the TV every pick of that draft, and being seriously fucking pissed when the Titans picked Dyson, and even the fucking Cowboys passed on him.

I get frustrated when people shit on him, because its a media construct (see Corey Dillon and AI for a few other examples)

I woulda kept Moss and brought in a real running back and a #2. Giving a dude away because he's a "distraction" just plain dumb.

In the modern free-agent market giving up a Moss doesn't mean as much as it used to.He was paid well, and now Minnesota can use the money to grab a couple of receivers and some defenders to help their D. It may end up making them better all around while obviously hurting their receiving corp.

Time will tell i guess.

I'd put money that the Giants pay up to get Burress and since nobody is really showing big money interest they should get him for a steal of around 5-6 mill a year.

With a name like that you'd think he'd aspire to higher crimes like serial killing.

Not one, but two other Bengals fans??!!

I am no longer alone!

Media construct? Gimme a break. What he does is very visible and purposeful. I guess that Ron Artest is a media construct, too. Oh well, you say media construct, I say thug. And no, half the league's players are NOT thugs.

I'm not trying to sound defensive here, but I was well aware that we were talking about Santana Moss before. Thus my original point with the Pennington tidbit that I tossed in. I just threw in the Randy thing cuz that's how I felt.

what do you mean by "thug", mike?

Hmmm, "bumping" a meter maid with a moving vehicle qualifies as "thug" in my book.

I'm not going to play the race card. Nope, just ain't gonna do it.

Anyone else here make mistakes? anyone else here get thrust into a spectacular spotlight at 19 or 20 and have to live up to some bullshit pretense of what an athlete should be? As I said, not many of his teamates were slagging him. One of them said they like the fact that the media focuses on Randy, and Randy said he knew that was his job.

We can go down a list of things he's done, from getting in a fight in HS (becasue someone called his friend something not so nice that begins with N and ends in Igger) he got bounced from FSU for perfin that bud...but I know when I was in HS, I woulda got bounced from just about everywhere for behavior like this.

I'm not saying he was right, but whatever became of the meter maid thing? How much did she get out of court? And I bet she had NO IDEA it was Randy Moss in the car

Whoooo, I should just step out of this argument, because it'll get ugly quick here ina minute.

In the sports context: one who is consistently and deliberately deviant and brings upon himself this image. See also the aforementioned Ron Artest, Rasheed Wallace, Tie Domi (goon, if you like. cuz we all know that thug is for the blacks, right?), Kyle Turley, John Runyan, you call it. Our minds are made up anyway, aren't they?

you've been saying this a lot lately, so i'll answer: no.

Thank you again voice of reason. Just had the blood up a bit, that's all. Seriously.

it's just that, for me, there's rough players in this list and then there's guys that make themselves a distraction, and i think that the latter hurts the team more. guys like bill laimbeer, ron artest and tie domi are what i think of when i think of "thugs", guys that play rough but you still kind of want on your team because they win games. guys like michael irvin are the ones that drive me nuts, with all the talent in the world and you know that he's taking this play off because he's taking a knee at the line of scrimage. i don't really think that rasheed fits in either category.

WHOA! Slow your role patna. Irv NEVER took plays off. CBs on the Boys would get pissed because he practiced harder than they played in games.

Randy said that he did...I ain't defending that, but I will say I think he learned a lesson, even if that lesson is keep ya damn mouth shut.

i could be wrong, but i swear that i remember him once lining up for a play and just basically sitting down. maybe he was hurt, maybe he was the commentator when i saw moss do it.

yeah, the distraction guys definitely hurt the team more. Thank you for giving me a chance to throw Keyshawn onto the list. Symantics, y'know? I can't stand Randy Moss or Bill Laimbeer.

do danny ainge and john stockton count as thugs too? man those dirty bastards used to drive me nuts.

YES. John Stockton, IMO, was the dirtiest player in the history of the sport.

he and laimbeer are almost indiscernably tied for first in my book.