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What should be done?
Nothing. A contract is a contract. Voiding them is a slippery slope 15%  15%  [ 6 ]
Bonus? For what? Running the company into the ground? Get the taxpayer money back. 72%  72%  [ 28 ]
Keep bonuses but commit Hari Kari. The Charles Grassley option 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Meh 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 39
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 Post subject: The AIG Executive Bonuses
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:12 pm 
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I'm finding this whole thing interesting. There is this widespread outrage for these bonuses being paid but in the end it's just a drop in the bucket and the bonuses were protected by the bailout.

On one hand, I find it fucking shameful that these people were paid so much for driving the car off the cliff. On the other, I think trying to get this money back or voiding these legally binding contracts sets a very bad precedent and is basically unconstitutional.

Seems like it's just a giant shit sandwich and we all just have to eat it.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:17 pm 
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Voted the first option. The real outrage here is that Geitner, Bernanke, Paulson et al didn't do more to protect from this sort of PR disaster.

And, as Eliot Spitzer lays out on Slate, the bigger problem lies in WHO the bailout money was paid to.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Voted the first option. The real outrage here is that Geitner, Bernanke, Paulson et al didn't do more to protect from this sort of PR disaster.

And, as Eliot Spitzer lays out on Slate, the bigger problem lies in WHO the bailout money was paid to.


yeah, just read that as well.

"The AIG bailout has been a way to hide an enormous second round of cash to the same group that had received TARP money already."

also, i voted 1, as sad as that may be.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:33 pm 
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My attention span has already deemed this to be an issue of the week that will pass. What's next?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:41 pm 
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russia's sudden armament buildup, i'd guess

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:42 pm 
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I voted 2nd option. The contract thing is bs.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Kingfish Wrote:
I voted 2nd option. The contract thing is bs.


i think i agree with you, 'fish. the terms are borderline unconscionable given the current situation, and the slippery slope fallacy is....a fallacy

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Last edited by toots on Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Kingfish Wrote:
The contract thing is bs.


You'll make a hell of a lawyer, sir.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Senator Lou Gar Wrote:
My attention span has already deemed this to be an issue of the week that will pass. What's next?


Exactly. These bonuses comprise what 1/10% of the total AIG payout? This is even less of an issue than the Great Earmark Freakout of last week.

But please, keep watching for Breaking News. And buy a product from one of our sponsors.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Senator Lou Gar Wrote:
My attention span has already deemed this to be an issue of the week that will pass. What's next?


Exactly. These bonuses comprise what 1/10% of the total AIG payout?.


I think everyone realizes how small it is in the grand scheme of things. Pennies if you will. However, I think we all expect companies to penny pinch when they're on the brink of destruction. Pennies add up when you need cash to survive. That's good common sense that you don't need the Harvard Business School to teach. And I think this is part of the problem - Folks like Larry Summers trying to tell the public that we don't understand.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:06 pm 
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Small in the grand scheme of things. But, if we're handing out taxpayer money, we need to be able to control how it is used. We should absolutely not just be handing over blank checks and this is a great example of why. These groups can not be trusted to do the right things with the money. It may well be too late to do much about this round of payoffs. But, any further funding should only be given within narrow guidelines of how it can be used.

I still voted to take the money back. Screw the law. These fuckers just ripped off the American people and if congress can come up with any half assed rationalization about how it is legal to get it back I'm fine with that.

Talk about a group of people who have a sense of entitlement. Why yes, I deserve another 10 million for all the hard work I've done this year I'm so important and all those people who point out how my company is crap since I've been in charge simply don't understand. Makes welfare cheaters look like nothing.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:11 pm 
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165 mil would support 3300 mid-level employee salaries

i think it's important to keep that in mind

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:20 pm 
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I'll admit that my frustration with the bailout has lead me to quit paying attention to this stuff. So I haven't done much reading on this. However, I'm not sure where the basis of the law protecting employment contracts comes from. We've been altering employment contracts through legislation for ages.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:39 pm 
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The contract line is bullshit. One would think there were any number of things that would trigger a breach on the bonus recipient's part. And if there aren't any clauses or sections that allow AIG to not pay these bonuses, then they need to have someone with half a brain re-write the contracts for them.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Or better yet, would AIG have paid these bonuses if they had received not one dime of bailout money?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:49 pm 
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AIG shouldn't have been bailed out to begin with. If they had been allowed to go into an orderly bankruptcy with a Government provided debtor in possession, they could have crammed down those contracts and any others that don't make sense while liquidating the assets.

And I must have missed the announcement that Barney Frank, Charles Schumer, Obama, Geithner, et al were taking big paycuts until the economy gets turned around. This faux populism is bs and dangerous.

And I didn't vote because Derris left out the option that if the bonuses give Saint and other knobs a coronary the $165 million is taxpayer dollars well spent.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:54 pm 
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i voted meh. it sucks but really, nothing's going to change.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:20 pm 
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billy g Wrote:

And I didn't vote because Derris left out the option that if the bonuses give Saint and other knobs a coronary the $165 million is taxpayer dollars well spent.


Does that make me the leader of the knobs?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:21 pm 
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saint Wrote:
billy g Wrote:

And I didn't vote because Derris left out the option that if the bonuses give Saint and other knobs a coronary the $165 million is taxpayer dollars well spent.


Does that make me the leader of the knobs?


I think you've earned that


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:23 pm 
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all the hard work has paid off.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
The contract line is bullshit. One would think there were any number of things that would trigger a breach on the bonus recipient's part. And if there aren't any clauses or sections that allow AIG to not pay these bonuses, then they need to have someone with half a brain re-write the contracts for them.


that's basically my opinion. a contract is a contract, but in this case the term "bonus" sounds strange. (it's not that we don't have this discusion in germany as well)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Kingfish Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
Senator Lou Gar Wrote:
My attention span has already deemed this to be an issue of the week that will pass. What's next?


Exactly. These bonuses comprise what 1/10% of the total AIG payout?.


I think everyone realizes how small it is in the grand scheme of things. Pennies if you will. However, I think we all expect companies to penny pinch when they're on the brink of destruction. Pennies add up when you need cash to survive. That's good common sense that you don't need the Harvard Business School to teach. And I think this is part of the problem - Folks like Larry Summers trying to tell the public that we don't understand.


Friedman summarizes the situation pretty well:

"Let’s not forget, A.I.G. was basically running an unregulated hedge fund inside a AAA-rated insurance company. And — like Madoff, who was selling phantom stocks — A.I.G. was selling, in effect, phantom insurance against the default of bundled subprime mortgages and other debt — insurance that A.I.G. had nowhere near enough capital to back up when bonds went bust."

The idea that our tax dollars would fund bonuses to the division of AIG that enabled the downfall of the global banking system is ludicrous in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:37 pm 
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billy g Wrote:
.
And I must have missed the announcement that Barney Frank, Charles Schumer, Obama, Geithner, et al were taking big paycuts until the economy gets turned around. This faux populism is bs and dangerous.
.


Can we agree that a pay cut isn't the same thing as not receiving a bonus?

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Kingfish Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
.
And I must have missed the announcement that Barney Frank, Charles Schumer, Obama, Geithner, et al were taking big paycuts until the economy gets turned around. This faux populism is bs and dangerous.
.


Can we agree that a pay cut isn't the same thing as not receiving a bonus?


no, the guaranteed minimum bonus is essentially salary.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:55 pm 
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billy g Wrote:
Kingfish Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
.
And I must have missed the announcement that Barney Frank, Charles Schumer, Obama, Geithner, et al were taking big paycuts until the economy gets turned around. This faux populism is bs and dangerous.
.


Can we agree that a pay cut isn't the same thing as not receiving a bonus?


no, the guaranteed minimum bonus is essentially salary.


yeah thats how I think about mine. guaranteed a certain % of my base salary and it gets multiplied depending on various factors.

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