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 Post subject: gear question for electronic musicians
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:20 pm 
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So I'm looking to augment my capabilities by adding sampling/sequencing/keyboards to my set up. Since I know very little about this stuff, I can only describe what I'm interested in accomplishing and seeing where that leads me.
What I would like:
* the ability to produce rhythmic loops at home that I could trigger live, but that would be open to having other sounds/patches/samples played over them without having those secondary samples be a part of the loops themselves. Would also be nice to have a keyboard that I could use to play other parts over the loops, perhaps, although it's not a requirement. But I would like to have the flexibility to do it if possible.
I dont know if anyone is making a keyboard that also allows one to play sequenced beats at the same time a sound bank is called up to allow usage of the keyboard itself to play melodic parts and/or trigger samples over the loops, but it seems to me a combination of the three would be ideal.
I'm a total novice in electronic/midi stuff, so this is my starting point. I dont want to buy something now I'd look to upgrade in 6 months, I'd rather figure out what I need and get the right tools for the job.
Any advice is greatly appreciated...


edit: i should have added, i'm not bringing a laptop to shows...i'm intending to use my home studio to produce things i can then use at shows, but i'm primarily a drummer and this is a secondary thing for me.

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Last edited by nick on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:27 pm 
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pollysix to thread asap!

imo, you don't need a keyboard. all can be done with software.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:42 pm 
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http://www.ableton.com/

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 Post subject: Re: gear question for electronic musicians
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:30 am 
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nick Wrote:
So I'm looking to augment my capabilities by adding sampling/sequencing/keyboards to my set up. Since I know very little about this stuff, I can only describe what I'm interested in accomplishing and seeing where that leads me.
What I would like:
* the ability to produce rhythmic loops at home that I could trigger live, but that would be open to having other sounds/patches/samples played over them without having those secondary samples be a part of the loops themselves. Would also be nice to have a keyboard that I could use to play other parts over the loops, perhaps, although it's not a requirement. But I would like to have the flexibility to do it if possible.
I dont know if anyone is making a keyboard that also allows one to play sequenced beats at the same time a sound bank is called up to allow usage of the keyboard itself to play melodic parts and/or trigger samples over the loops, but it seems to me a combination of the three would be ideal.
I'm a total novice in electronic/midi stuff, so this is my starting point. I dont want to buy something now I'd look to upgrade in 6 months, I'd rather figure out what I need and get the right tools for the job.
Any advice is greatly appreciated...


edit: i should have added, i'm not bringing a laptop to shows...i'm intending to use my home studio to produce things i can then use at shows, but i'm primarily a drummer and this is a secondary thing for me.


Dalen, you're funny. Funny timing too, I just got back from computer switch-over world. And figured I'd stop by.

Berliner is right... Ableton sounds like the closest thing to what you want. But you'd be heading down the laptop route with that.

Hum. Not sure what to say here. Please don't take this as a dis but reading your description of what you want it's all a little confusing... which prompts me to ask what may be a tough a question: why are you looking to buy all kinds of electronic music gear at this point? What's your motivation. Because seriously, you don't seem to be into synths at all. Synths are instruments in themselves, sure you can buy sample banks to make them sound like strings or whatever, but really, you should be into synths first--before deciding you need a whole mess of gear.

Again, I'm not trying to be a d*ck, it's just it's like saying, you need to buy 3 guitars, and a marshall, and 8 pedals, but you haven't ever picked up a guitar.

My point in all this is: start with something simple, see how you like it, write some songs using a synth/drum machine/whatever, and take it from there.

Learning about gear/sequencing/recording etc. is pretty much a never ending process... but the best way to learn is to start with something and start writing songs with it and then as questions/problems/gear needs arise, you can learn more/buy more.

A good place to start would be to get some kind of synth set-up on your current computer. A little while ago a friend asked me to explain MIDI... I'll copy-paste it below for you -- maybe it will help. If not just ignore...

good luck. :-)

PS - If you don't want to go the laptop route... you're pretty much looking at loop pedals or finding a computer with a built in sequencer.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:47 am 
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on a user level it's actually pretty simple.

although we often use the words "keyboards" and "synthesizers" interchangeably, they are in fact two different things.

the synth is where the noise comes from and the keyboard is what controls or "triggers" the sounds from the synth. so basically the "synth" and the "controller".

sometimes they are together in one unit and sometimes they are separate.

see this beast... [img][379:500]http://www.synthtopia.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/synthpunk-modular-synthesizer.jpg[/img]
it's a modular synth---that's what some of the first synths looked like. they didn't have a keyboard part... only the sound-generating part. you would set the pitch via dials.

so basically MIDI is a way to control a synth. nowadays most synths have both sound-generating and midi controller capabilities, but the most clear cut way for me to describe it is using old technology.

I have an old synth (it's a *cough* Korg "Poly Six") it's an analog synth. It has no digital components or MIDI, so all it does is generate an audio signal, like a guitar would.
[img][650:237]http://www.zikinf.com/_gfx/matos/dyn/large/korg-polysix.jpg[/img]

So in terms of interfacing with the computer, with the Polysix you'd need a soundcard that would have an ADC (analog to digital converter), which would basically turn that audio signal into something the computer can understand. But basically it would always be a soundwave.

On the other extreme is a dedicated MIDI controller keyboard. e.g.
[img][650:314]http://www.gigasonic.com/images/maudioaxiom49.jpg[/img]

This basically has no internal sound-generating capabilities---so the only way you could "make music" with it would be to hook it up to something that does--i.e. a synth... these are often called "sound modules" if they're an external piece of hardware, or in the case of computers, they would be called Virtual instruments (also "softsynth"). In this situation when you play the keyboard you're sending a signal to the synth to say "play this note" and even "play this note with this specific velocity".

Similar to the purely audio example above... you need a way to interface with your computer. In this case you'd also need a soundcard... but one with MIDI capabilites so that the controller can talk to the software. It would not be sending any audio to the computer, just information to control audio.

Now just to confuse you... this process of the keyboard controlling a synth is what happens internally inside the things we normally call synthesizers... but it's all internal so we don't think about it (although as a note, it's not using MIDI inside it... just well, I don't know what it uses internally in that case).

See...
Image
what you see here is the controller on the outside... the synthesizer part is on the inside (looks pretty much the same as the MIDI-only one right? Well, except hotter).

This synth, like pretty much every new synth these days, can also be used as a MIDI controller. So basically there are (at least) two connectors on the back : an audio out to send a pure audio signal to a soundcard to record it, and a MIDI out for if you separately want to just use the keyboard as a way to control sounds on your computer. Sometimes too there is another connector for if you want to receive MIDI signals---i.e. to control the internal synth of the keyboard.

The cool thing about MIDI is that the controller doesn't necessarily have to be a keyboard, it's cheesy but there are also MIDI guitars and even "wind controllers".

The other really practical thing about MIDI is that because it's merely instructions, MIDI allows you to easily manipulate what you record after the fact It's like with graphics--the same way that vector graphics allow you loss-less transformations to the image, like scaling up or rotating or whatever, a MIDI "recording" lets you edits the notes, and change the pitch and tempo without degrading the sound. Very practical for composers trying things out. Oh yeah and because it only registers what note to play and how, you can actually at any time just say: "Oh... this was a flute, but now I want to make it a bass drum". The software doesn't care, the "instrument" part is only like a "skin" over the notes.

There ends lesson 1 of MIDI (and also a brief tour of some of my synths... heh heh... well I don't have a modular). Don't know if it helped, but I could nerd out on this stuff for hours so... if you have any questions let me know.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:59 am 
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Okay... last post...

Also, like instruments, synths all have different sound qualities to them. So again, first get an idea of the sound you're looking for.

If you do your research there are some pretty decent 'older' but digital synths to be had for a good price on craigslist. Similarly, if you're just looking for a very smple protable midi controller (i.e. no native sounds), you can probably find something like an Oxygen (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Oxygen8v2.html) for around $100 on craigslist.

a great reference that includes sound clips is:
http://www.vintagesynth.com/index.php

They're not going to list stuff like plain old midi controllers, or the newest snyths on the block, but they've got a lot up there. Great way to learn.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:41 am 
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If you're looking to layer Premade samples over one another while keeping the original samples intact, while possibly playing keys over them, there are 3 main routes to go for live setup:

1) Computer, but you've pretty much ruled that out

2) Loop pedals. These'll work best if you're going to play something live, then layer on top of it. However, for the most part, 1 sample = 1 loop. If you play over the loop, and loop that, you'll lose the original sample (or at least have to reload it)

3) A simple sampler might work - SP 303 or SP 404. I have a seriously underused SP 404 w/ SD Card that'll hold/play 120 individual samples (w/tempo adjust/beatmatch capabilities). I kinda need to trade it in for something more drum pad oriented / cheaper for home production, but a lot of people I know use 303's or 404's for premade loops to play over live.

Hope that helps...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:58 am 
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Pardon my ignorance (but please, by all means educate me), but couldn't he get something like an M-audio Axiom Interface that has both USB and MIDI, hook that up to his computer at home, design the sounds he wants and then use that live?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:09 am 
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polly, thanks for the read. i'm def not looking to buy all kinds of gear at this point, as you state.
at this point, i'm already working with a smaller looping set up - an rc20xl which i think has like 11 or so writeable phrases - which i could potentially use to trigger other rhythmic loops i've created at home. i've already got my hands on an old [OLD!] roland tr-505 that i've used to make other beats in the past. obviously the sound bank on that is limited to the bass drum sound from 'blue monday' [ha! he jokes]. the 505 has 2 midi ports built in with several analog outs, which i could potentially use to trigger samples/sounds, however i'm unsure as to how well that would work out if i wanted to trigger single notes to play melodic lines. i guess it's simply a matter of assigning the tones to certain pads like you would with any other controller/interface.
i guess my real question primarily lies in whether or not there's a device which can be used to load/play looped phrases, trigger other sounds [through use of pads or a keyboard/controller] and handle having other melodic instrument modules [e.g. 'piano', 'flugelhorn', 'tin whistle'] controlled through the same interface.
i do understand how i am intentionally trying to limit myself - something like ableton is obviously very useful when you are going that route, however i'm looking more for something which will augment the sound we have going already [ 2 drummers, 1 gtr, some vocals] rather than trying to make this the main focus of our sound and having live instruments act in a more supporting role.

edit: and obviously, spending little to no money b/c what i already have can be used if i just get myself a sound module to load onto the 505, and run that and the rc20 through a small personal mixer is ideal. if only to further complicate my addled brain.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Akai MPD 32? http://www.akaipro.com/mpd32


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:48 am 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Pardon my ignorance (but please, by all means educate me), but couldn't he get something like an M-audio Axiom Interface that has both USB and MIDI, hook that up to his computer at home, design the sounds he wants and then use that live?


he'd still be missing:
1 - the sound-generating part (i.e. he'd need something on his computer that would give him sounds, e.g. a sampler, or a virtual synth, etc.)

and

2- Live he'd need something with memory to store the sounds.

I got this: http://www.m-audio.ca/products/en_ca/KeyStudio49i.html for my bf this past christmas. It's a good way to get a basic soundcard and midi interface and controlled all in one, with some basic piano sound etc. But mos def not a set-up for making sounds and does not have any real internela memory, definitely not a sequencer. Decent price though to just have a keyboard to play around on/hook up to the computer.

I'm not too knowledgeable about hardware samplers, but yeah, like discostu said, it might be a way to go....

hey and nick, 'blue monday' sounds is a good thing. ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:44 am 
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pollysix Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
Pardon my ignorance (but please, by all means educate me), but couldn't he get something like an M-audio Axiom Interface that has both USB and MIDI, hook that up to his computer at home, design the sounds he wants and then use that live?


he'd still be missing:
1 - the sound-generating part (i.e. he'd need something on his computer that would give him sounds, e.g. a sampler, or a virtual synth, etc.)

and

2- Live he'd need something with memory to store the sounds.


Well, it does come with software (i guess the one you got for your bf did too, right?) and I guess I was making the leap of judgment that maybe he had a Mac and therefore GarageBand and its sounds.

But you would still need to connect it to a computer to use it live i guess? Hell, it claims to be "programmable"...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Is anyone else turned on?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:40 pm 
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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Well, it does come with software (i guess the one you got for your bf did too, right?) and I guess I was making the leap of judgment that maybe he had a Mac and therefore GarageBand and its sounds.

But you would still need to connect it to a computer to use it live i guess? Hell, it claims to be "programmable"...


Yah, if you had it hooked up to GB then it could be cool -- because it has the interface you could hook up a mic/instrument a record into it, and yah, you could use it as a controller for the samples in GB. But yah, you'd still need to have GB running in order to reply those sounds live.

Not sure what they mean by programmable with that particular keyboard. I think that somehow, when you have it hooked up to your computer and have their software installed that you can access additional sounds, but I don't think the keyboard itself (i.e. as standalone) has any memory to store that stuff.

The thing is, in general for new keys, the price structure goes something like this:

MIDI controller < Synth (i.e. sound generating) < Synth with sequencing and/or sampling (e.g. ways to safe complex patterns and decent realistic instrument sounds).

Generally as you move up the foodchain the bigger fish include the features of the smaller fish. (uh... metaphor kind of broke down, but you get it)

Serious "Piano"-style keys are also more expensive.

Again, if you want something like some fun, vintage synth sounds there are some decent digital ones out there that can be found on craigslist for a reasonable price (e.g. I'd highly recommend this bad boy: http://www.vintagesynth.com/korg/ms2000.php I found the keyb. version for $500 can). Many people would argue with me re: the usefulness of hardware synths, but really, it's nice to have a 'instrument'.

Oh... and all-round fun (new) synth: http://www.korg.com/product.aspx?&pd=279

(Lord, I should seriously be a Korg rep!)

Good luck! :rockbanana:


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