Deny. Lebron has drawn criticism in the past for not scoring enough and not taking over games enough. Before this season, people were beginning to question both his work ethic and his desire to win. If you believe what you read, he (and D. Wade) went through something of a transformation in Beijing after seeing how hard Kobe works (Kobe doin' work--get it?).

Kobe got less criticism early in his career mainly because he had Shaq around to deflect not only criticism but also to cover up holes in his game while he developed. The legit criticism began AFTER the Lakers had won three straight rings, not before.

Its a classic media play for our age -- two extremely talented, and ultimately nuanced (as all humans tend to be) individuals, playing a team sport -- one is loved, the other is hated (generally) and that is the way it has to be. Anything not fitting into these tidy boxes is ignored or derided.

Lebron's a nice guy, Kobe's a dick, and ALL coverage of them must be seen through this prism, even if it's stuff like Spike's attempt to make Kobe look like a nice guy.

You are usually so much more lucid than that.

Loog is correct.... the meme holds fast, and, like the Puppetmaster of old, infects even the brightest of Obners.

I'm sorry, but as a long-suffering Jazz fan, I've got to stick up for my guy Malone here. You'd be correct in stating he didn't produce in this series (6 points, 8 boards per game), but to say he gave no effort is really unfair. The guy played every game with a sprained MCL, for crying out loud. There were plenty of things that annoyed me about Malone (his tendency to sometimes wither in the clutch, his insistence on referring to himself in the third-person, etc), but I will never knock his toughness (missed 5 games total his first 13 seasons) or the effort he gave.

Hey J. Gotta call you on the suffering here...the Jazz have made the playoffs 23 of the past 26 years, making the finals twice. If it hadn't been for a guy named MJ, they probably have two titles right now.

I agree with your point about Malone, though. As a long suffering Jazz hater living in Utah, I watched that guy outwork everyone on the floor well into his late 30's.

Try being a Seattle Sonic fan---that is true suffering. And now Howard Schultz and Clay Bennett have put an end to that suffering.

True enough. Long-suffering is probably not the right word. It hurts getting close but not close enough year after year, but 18 years of Stockton-to-Malone definitely leave you a bit spoiled. At least your Sonics got a championship back in the DJ and Sikma glory days. But you're definitely right - being a Sonic fan lately (heck, being a fan of anything to do with sports in the state of Washington lately) is a long hard road. And it's going to get even harder as you watch Kevin Durant blossom into one of the league's elite over the next few years. Thanks for nothing, Sonic ownership.

Yeah. I was wondering what a team with a Ray Allen/Rashard Lewis/Kevin Durrant nucleus could've done in the Western conference over the past 2 years. This is what they could've started with before the Clay Bennett Going-Out-Of-Business Sale.

They wouldn't have won any titles, but with the right supporting cast and good coaching, they would have made some noise. More importantly, there would still be NBA hoops in Seattle.

It's painful to watch the ex-Sonics on these different playoff teams. I was happy for Ray Allen winning last year. I'm pulling for the Magic so Lewis gets one this year.

If you want to use the word "hog", Lebron is a much bigger hog than Kobe ever was. He holds onto the ball forever, and gets way more touches than Kobe ever has.

And Lebron gets the benefit of the doubt from the officials way too much. If it wasn't for his bogus free throws, he wouldn't be averaging 40 ppg this series. I hate this Cavs team. They are so goddamn boring and painful to watch.

Lebron slooooooowly brings the ball up the court. Lebron tries to drive around a pick. Lebron gets cut off. Lebron passes the ball to Delonte West. Delonte West passes the ball back to Lebron. And it begins AGAIN. Every fucking time.

Prolly about what Ray Allen did with Sam Cassell & Glenn Robinson. None of those guys are winning any titles... without a superstar around them.

Field Goal Attempts averaged over the last three seasons:

Kobe: 1,720
Lebron: 1,625



Now this is interesting because if you look at the two seasons prior to this one, both guys are pretty similar (Kobe averages 755 Free Throw Attempts, LeBron 736), but this year LeBron (and several other players including Howard and Wade who lead the league), have more than Kobe mainly because Kobe doesn't drive the rim and initiate contact nearly as much as he used to. Still, as little as you know about basketball you should understand that if you are good and drive the rim, you will get to the line. Its Basketball 101.

Yail's right about how you get to the line. Kobe's pretty much a loser but it's gonna be funnier'n hell when he opts out on these turds after the season.

Kobes not going anywhere, no team can afford him and to do so they have to get rid of players that will make him a contender for the title.

Btw, Lebron's shot is gonna get lost in the fact that they will lose in the ECF.

Both players shoot and control the ball alot and get to the line alot. But noone's calling Lebron a ball hog... its bullshit.

Yail, still dont think the Magic can make the Finals like you mocked me for in page one of this thread?

We are all witnesses, indeed.

Witnesses to the Orlando Magic beating up the "best team in basketball" (according to Mo Williams), in spite of the best efforts of the refs to give Cleveland the series.

Couldn't agree more. Kobe's athleticism has really dropped off the last couple of seasons. He can't jump for shit any more.

I love it how if you diss Lebron, you are pegged as a Kobe fan, or if you diss Kobe, you're pegged as a Lebron fan. The way I see it, neither of them will ever win a(nother) championship. Lebron miiiight, but he won't get more than 1. They are both stagnant offenses waiting to happen, and they both quit and hurl impossible jumpers late in games. When you look at the stats, Kobe and Lebron are both actually terrible closers.

When I watch Lebron play, I don't see him getting others involved at all. He rarely makes early passes. Every assist he gets is a late bailout pass from an unsuccessful scoring attempt. Steve Nash assists. They're useless.

And please don't use that Radcliffe-logic "as little as you know about basketball/music" jibe. It's meaninglessly stupid.

No, I think its pretty clear they can. Mea culpa.

Oh, the Magic are a lock.

At the start of the playoffs, I would have never picked it in a million years, but they're in.

I knew they'd give Cleveland a damn good shaking though.

I dont see how you can claim them as terrible closers. Both of them have the ability and the poise to take the last shot. Lebron's success rate isnt as high as Kobe's yet, but it will be. Who would you consider a proper closer? Because all bias aside, to me it is Kobe Bryant. Watch the fourth quarter of any crucial game and youll always get that "how did he do that?!" shot.

Did it ever to you mooks that the reason Kobe has been driving the lane less the last two years is that he was playing through two separate finger injuries, one of which doctors had recommended season-ending surgery for? Do you think it might make sense to lessen the amount he drives into traffic to lower the risk of his being lost for the rest of the season or worse?

And Mick you've earned the "little as you know about basketball" tag with the comment that Kobe/Lebron are poor closers.

Look at the statistics. Kobe's percentages on big shots down the stretch are not very good.

Everyone tends to forget how many ill-advised big shots he's missed.

Ok, point out what you don't like here. Kobe and Lebron are the leaders in scoring per 48 minutes of "clutch" time. Both %'s look decent to me. Lebron's looks damn impressive even and Kobe's should be lower since he's more of an outside shooter. Kobe's FG% drops by exactly 1% in these "clutch" periods vs his overall average which to me is impressive given how teams know he's going to be the one taking these shots and blanket cover him.

Kobe's game tonight answers several of the criticisms in this thread.... he had world class hops (the lob from Fisher), and he played to use the double and triple teams on him to find open teammates... passing up the three in the fourth quarter to find Odom open under the basket was pure, selfless, smart bb.

Lakers lose game 6 and win it in 7.

Also, if I were building a team from scratch, right now I'd take Dwight Howard first before I'd take Lebron.

Why does every Lakers fan seem okay with this mindset? It's like they are content with losing as long as it's still theoretically possible to come back and win it later. The Cavs seem to be doing the same thing (though I haven't seen any press since the last loss). It's like you know they're gonna sleepwalk through the first half of the next game. Which is utter bullshit and makes me want them to lose.

Though, to be fair, I always want the Lakers to lose.

Last year we walked thru to the finals, we lost. We now have home court advantage, especially with the Magic taking care of the Cavs. I disagree wiht Harry tho, I think we will win on Thursday in a close game. The Nuggets are a tough team, tougher than the Magic or the Cavs. It doesnt matter if you win one game, it matters if you win a series, I just wanna go to a parade.

One must be careful not to allow essentialist depictions to cloud the true apprehension of what one is reading. I don't predict a seven games series because I am a less than rapid LA-type (see earlier characterization my Homer Simpsonsims for Lakers), but rather the Nuggets are a really good team, playing at their optimum, playing at home at 7,000 feet, who, as it turns out, matches up well against this current Lakers team. In short, it isn't a lack of enthusiasm for said Lakers, rather it is clear-eyed bass'ball analysis. Got it? Check.

Bye Bye Lebron.

I almost enjoy seeing him fail as much as Dwyane Wade or Kobe.

See what happens when he doesn't get bullshit free throw after free throw? He's a terrible shooter with bad footwork who travels a lot and dribbles too much, wrapped up in the most athletic body the game has ever seen. The Cavaliers have the most overrated supporting cast in the league. Ain't no team winning the goddamn Australian League with Mo Williams as the number 2 option.