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 Post subject: Essentially Only Two Methods of Progression
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:03 pm 
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Just read this and found it kind of interesting. Will be spending the rest of my Friday night drinking some beer and listening to some of my favorite stuff trying to decide whether or not I entirely agree with the sentiments here. I figured if nothing else it might spurn some pretty good discussion around here, depending on whether or not people agree with this or completely dismiss it.

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" There are two main kinds of progressive, whether in music or in other fields of human activity. The first are those who are entirely disenchanted with the continued relevance of established methods and past traditions; they therefore seek to do away with them, and to replace them with something else; something fresh, untraditional. The second are those who do not discard past traditions, but seek instead to reinterpret them, and to apply them in a fresh context as they see fit.

The first kind, who may be described as the ideological iconoclasts, are far more readily noticeable than the second. It is indeed one of the prime requisites, if you are going to put forward new methods and fresh styles, that your gestures should he both strikingly novel, if possible outrageous, and immediately recognisable. Thus the avant-garde aesthetic is a simple one. But the severe risk run by those who subscribe to it is twofold; partly that means may be mistaken for ends - the striking of a fresh posture, the adoption of an untried process, may be mistaken in itself for an art-work, which it is not; and partly that, by thus shifting the scale of values, the concept of permanent validity in the finished work becomes relative. Your novelty one week may well be made redundant by someone else's more radical novelty the next, if you have no other yardstick by which to measure it than the fact of its 'progressiveness'.

The second kind of progressives run risks as well, though of a different, more subtle, nature. They may be overlooked as merely 'traditional', and their work not understood for what it is. Because they do not sever all links with the past, as the other kind do, but on the contrary accept the past and try to relate it to the present, their relevance for the present may he questioned. In the eyes of the first kind they will probably appear as 'blacklegs', who have, by compromising with tradition, forfeited any right to he called 'progressive' at all.

And yet the self-styled revolutionaries, of whom several adorn the history of music - much as heretics adorn the history of the Christian Church - rarely reach beyond the ephemeral stage. At most they succeed in focusing attention on to a particular idea, which others may then pursue and develop. Art reaches a more than ephemeral validity only when its creator takes a wider view of tradition than the narrowly revolutionary one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:09 pm 
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It seems like Obner has had shades of this dichtomy many times in different forms of argument.

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I tried to find somebody of that sort that I could like that nobody else did - because everybody would adopt his group, and his group would be _it_; someone weird like Captain Beefheart. It's no different now - people trying to outdo ! each other in extremes. There are people who like X, and there are people who say X are wimps; they like Black Flag.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:38 pm 
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Kingfish Wrote:
It seems like Obner has had shades of this dichtomy many times in different forms of argument.


Probably.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:54 pm 
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i think klosterman said this in his last book


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:57 pm 
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Patrick Wrote:
i think klosterman said this in his last book


I ran across it doing a search for Edmund Rubbra. Perhaps Klosterman is a fan.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:09 am 
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This is Art/Music?: As I read it you've got 2 kinds of progressive, one avant garde, one middling, and then in contrast, the traditionalist. (I'm drunk and one handed so I need to read to myself to understand).Or for example, one is many colors, one is a mix of primary and one rests only in primary. Is this essay to parse the psychological intentions of a typical artist? Where did this excerpt come from?

The breakdown is acceptable, categorical probably, but I think you could find artists that grey the boundaries. Traditionalists and the secondary progressives know their roots. If this is some sort of argument that the avantgarde are beyond the shoulders before them well, then tell me about it. I want to know examples.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:57 am 
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So what this is saying is that you can do something old or something new...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:50 am 
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Kingfish Wrote:
It seems like Obner has had shades of this dichtomy many times in different forms of argument.


No shit. I felt like I was reading an excerpt from "Taste: An Obner Study".

Essentially, in board terms, it's saying:

Critics of PPDD - a type of progressive music that attempts to put artistic merit over more trad music with wider appeal. Fans of this usually seek boundary pushing art most in their music. Problem is that many times it can be the flavor of the week and seem dated when the next flavor of the week comes out. Some might say it can be method over substance. Sometime you must wade through a ton of bullshit to get to the true originals and even they may not truly be revealed in their time. Rarely, if ever, reach a wider audience. Can be viewed as unlistenable.

Critics of Reg Rock - more traditional. Always looks to the past for inspiration instead of the future. As such, will never be "revolutionary". Some might say many times it is sound over substance. It's isn't truly creative because it continues to use traditional tools. You must also wade through a ton of bullshit to get to the great "artists". Potential to reach a much larger audience but that doesn't make it "art". Can be viewed as tired, bland, and boring. 'It's all been done before".


Am I getting warm here? Regardless, both viewpoints are completely valid and both have produced some amazing music. I'm sure we can all put one person or another on here in these camps but some will use both of these arguments to defend their position at times. I mean I KNOW I've heard OPA use some sort of progressive argument on here before to defend stuff and just last week, harry commented on MMJ looking to the past and Arcade Fire looking towards the future or something.

It's an age old battle.



CHOOSE SIDES.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:01 pm 
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Rick Derris Wrote:
Kingfish Wrote:
It seems like Obner has had shades of this dichtomy many times in different forms of argument.


harry commented on MMJ looking to the past


This is what I was thinking about last night as following the recent polls I gave MMJ a real good listen for the first time and I kind of wrote it off boring, nothing new. But this got me thinking that perhaps that was completely unfair. Maybe by advancing things in very small steps, it's actually a bigger risk than doing something completely new. If something is completely new, there will likely be some sort of recognition, whether it be praise or disdain, it seems to me more likely that you will actually at least get noticed. Whereas with a band like MMJ, it seems easy that they very well could be overlooked by a lot of people, as there isn't that immediate change to stand out. I hadn't really ever considered the risk involved in that, in staying very close to the past.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:12 pm 
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Personally, I don't know why anyone has to choose sides. I very much enjoy a minor twist on a style I love, but I can just as easily be seduced by something new and different. I do loose patience with things that just seem to be trying to be different for differences sake or things that forget that music is supposed to be enjoyable to listen to. But, by the same measure, while I can enjoy a band aping my favorites, I never really respect them the way I do something where they add there own ideas a bit more.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:28 am 
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Rick Derris Wrote:
Kingfish Wrote:
It seems like Obner has had shades of this dichtomy many times in different forms of argument.


No shit. I felt like I was reading an excerpt from "Taste: An Obner Study".

Essentially, in board terms, it's saying:

Critics of PPDD - a type of progressive music that attempts to put artistic merit over more trad music with wider appeal. Fans of this usually seek boundary pushing art most in their music. Problem is that many times it can be the flavor of the week and seem dated when the next flavor of the week comes out. Some might say it can be method over substance. Sometime you must wade through a ton of bullshit to get to the true originals and even they may not truly be revealed in their time. Rarely, if ever, reach a wider audience. Can be viewed as unlistenable.

Critics of Reg Rock - more traditional. Always looks to the past for inspiration instead of the future. As such, will never be "revolutionary". Some might say many times it is sound over substance. It's isn't truly creative because it continues to use traditional tools. You must also wade through a ton of bullshit to get to the great "artists". Potential to reach a much larger audience but that doesn't make it "art". Can be viewed as tired, bland, and boring. 'It's all been done before".


Am I getting warm here? Regardless, both viewpoints are completely valid and both have produced some amazing music. I'm sure we can all put one person or another on here in these camps but some will use both of these arguments to defend their position at times. I mean I KNOW I've heard OPA use some sort of progressive argument on here before to defend stuff and just last week, harry commented on MMJ looking to the past and Arcade Fire looking towards the future or something.

It's an age old battle.



CHOOSE SIDES.


Well done, in obner terms.

So, I'm a BluPooDingReg obnerian perhaps!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:37 am 
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I think its a valid insight to the extent that the dichotomy captures the extremes in approach to anything set within a historical context. So, progression is either a rejection or refinement of what came before. As already mentioned, not a terribly original insight.


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