I'm impressed that you see every moment as a teachable moment. I feel it's not my responsibility to enlighten or set straight anyone who should already know better. These are adult human beings who have access to the same facts and figures as everyone else. If they want to come to the conclusion that Obama is the Antichrist I leave it to more longsuffering unreconstructed love gurus like yourself to do the beatific.

Don't you think you're ignorant about things and have screwed up perceptions based on your own environment, personality, and prejudices? Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to talk as though you have your shit together? I mean, if Obner communicates one thing pretty clearly about its members it's that most of us don't really have our shit together at all. So, you may win in this specific context, but I think it's a little misguided to talk as though you're unaffected by ignorance and premature, uninformed opinions.I am all for pointing out my and other people's inane behavior and commentary. Even getting a good laugh at other people's expense (or my own--see my Across the Universe thread, for example). Maybe I am misunderstanding your intent and tone, but you sound really, really angry. All we can do is our best, and I am envious of the intellectual and social superiority you boast in order to feel the way you do.

i think the big difference is having the motivation to recognize and carve out those chunks of ignorance, versus gleefully wallowing in the sty of willful ignorance

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/09/1 ... o-service/

This is pretty funny. I thought libertarians think mass transit is some socialist program that their tax dollars shouldn't cover.

Anger and intent of intellectually superiority was not intended. When I say people have access to the same facts and figures, they do. It doesn't mean I have my shit all together. It just means when something is an outright lie or distortion most people should be able to see it. I used to work with mentally retarded adults. Even they could tell lies from truth about two thirds of the time.

And I meant it when I said I'm impressed with Harry. I grew up with fundamentalist commie-hating, narrow world view people who talked the grace of god and the condemnation of hell for the unworthy in successive breaths. I'm sick of them and fed up with being expected to meet them halfway on concepts that are so far away halfway is far too far to go. That Harry is still willing to wade into that mess with faith he can help is very impressive. I tried for decades and I'm tired of it.

Oh man. Where to start.
Honestly, have you looked at or listened to the fuckwits on the other side and what they're putting out there? It's disgusting. We're not talking about misguided teens who read "The Fountainhead" and impotently spout off in the high school cafeteria about self determinism. To not get angry and indignant at the racial-level hate these assholes are dressing up in patriotism and constitutionalism, and to in essence say any disagreement with that segment comes down to differences in perspective rather than an embrace (and refusal) of sensible thought, takes a level of rationalization I can't get anywhere close to comfortable with.
It's got nothing to do with intellectual superiority and a whole lot to do with being really fucking disturbed that paranoia and alarmist iconography have replaced what used to pass for somewhat reasoned discourse, and that the lunatic fringe continues to garner attention by ramping up the barely veiled hate day by day. Not that they're legitimized by the attention, but it draws out more nuts by the day.

Truly the point is to relieve suffering. First and foremost my own. As it happens my own suffering is ameliorated most when I have compassion. It is really quite a selfish principle. You remember, it is in forgiving that we are forgiven.

And for the record... my grandfather was a bishop in a very, very conservative fundamentalist church. He was a righteous man, a great preacher... and I remember he lived with us in 1960 when Kennedy was nominated... I, a young kid, danced around the house happy to hear Huntley and Brinkley talk about the new young presidential candidate... Pappy (the old preacher, full of the Holy Spirit) said... "why do you like that nigger-lover." In a few weeks my partner and I are having a huge anniversary party... instead of the wedding we had quickly last year to beat the Prop 8 deadline... my born-again sister-in-law congratulated us by writing a long diatribe about the pains of hellfire.

"There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen

Happy anniversary, Harry.

I'm both amazed you noticed that and happy than I can repeat this message.

<genuine gratitude>

Even though I didn't quote it all, I see your point. I really do, and I don't necessarily disagree with it. I guess my initial reaction to spoon's comments was one of "to be fair, there are fuckwits on BOTH sides and they put out equally irrational, misinformed shit (myself included--regularly). I think spoon's response to me helped clarify what I was misunderstanding from his original post.

Ideally, I think Harry hits on the heart of it for me. Practically, I think I float somewhere in the middle of Harry and spoon's perspectives and I nudge closer to each extreme, back and forth, every day.

On a certain level, my disgust in it is two-fold. One, the lunatic fringe being, well, lunatics. But second, that they connect everything they say and do with their religious beliefs and due to the media attention they garner, that's how people see me if and when I say I am a "Christian". I guess I feel conflicted because I am both on the outside and on the inside. I'd love to "educate" others that have such ignorance, but then I realize how ignorant I am to many things and then I just feel unqualified. I don't know if that makes any sense...

Compassion instead of dismissal is sort of where I'd prefer to sit, despite whatever emotional response I may have initially.

p.s. I third the "Happy Anniversary, Harry."

I'm not going to get into this debate, but I, also, want to wish Harry a Happy Anniversary.

yeah, of all places for that sentiment to develop, I'm glad it did.

Congrats to you both, Harry.

I have plenty of compassion for people who don't know they're being lied to. I have none for people who see the lie exposed and still call it truth because it fits their need for a boogeyman external to their microcosm.

The only ones I'm genuinely angry at are true racists/religious bigots and, more so, the pharisees pulling the strings. The only people Jesus ever condemned were those who hurt children and the "white-washed sepulcres" who set themselves up as moral authorities while knowingly advancing a dishonest and self-interested agenda.

Happy anniversary, Harry!

happy anniversary, harry!!